2000)

(Music)

>> Gary Walker: JUST AHEAD ON

"NEED TO KNOW," THE FALL

CAMPAIGN SEASON HAS ARRIVED

BEFORE SUMMER HAS.

THE WEATHER HAS BEEN COOL, BUT

ELECTION 2000 IS JUST

BEGINNING TO HEAT UP.

>> Elissa Marra: SOME PUNDITS

SAY CAMPAIGN 2000 WILL BE

REMEMBERED AS ONE OF THE MOST

NEGATIVE PRESIDENTIAL

ELECTIONS IN U.S. HISTORY.

AND FOR NEW YORKERS, IT'S NOT

JUST THE WHITE HOUSE; A

COVETED U.S. SENATE SEAT IS

ALSO AT STAKE.

>> Gary Walker: "NEED TO KNOW"

LOOKS AT NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING.

VOTERS SAY THEY DON'T LIKE IT,

BUT CAMPAIGNS SAY IT WORKS.

>> Elissa Marra: WE TALK TO

PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE ADS AND TO

THOSE WHO SAY POLITICAL ADS

SHOULD BE MORE POSITIVE.

>> Gary Walker: PLUS WE'LL

SHOW YOU SOME CURRENT

PRESIDENTIAL ADS AS WELL AS

SOME FROM THE CLINTON/LAZIO

CAMPAIGN; THEN YOU CAN JUDGE

FOR YOURSELF.

>> Elissa Marra: IT'S ALL NEXT

ON "NEED TO KNOW."

>> IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A

NEGATIVE CAMPAIGN WITH PEOPLE

BASHING EACH OTHER.

IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE SOMETHING

MORE PROFESSIONAL.

>> THIS IS "NEED TO KNOW," THE

ROCHESTER AREA'S ONLY IN-DEPTH

NEWS PROGRAM.

"NEED TO KNOW" IS A PRODUCTION

OF WXXI NEWS AND PUBLIC

AFFAIRS, COVERING ISSUES,

POLITICS, EDUCATION AND

CURRENT EVENTS.

>> "NEED TO KNOW" IS MADE

POSSIBLE BY THE DAISY MARQUIS

JONES FOUNDATION, BY LEXUS AND

THROUGH THE SUPPORT OF VIEWERS

LIKE YOU.

>> NOW FROM WXXI PUBLIC

BROADCASTING, HERE ARE GARY

WALKER AND ELISSA MARRA.

>> Elissa Marra: THANKS FOR

JOINING US.

IT'S CALLED GOING NEGATIVE,

AND FOR MOST AMERICANS, THIS

TYPE OF CAMPAIGN STRATEGY IS

GOING NOWHERE, AT LEAST IN

VOTER SURVEYS.

A RECENT STUDY SHOWS THAT MORE

THAN HALF OF THE AMERICANS

POLLED ARE DISSATISFIED WITH

CURRENT POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS,

MOSTLY BECAUSE OF THE

BACK-AND-FORTH AND THE

SO-CALLED MUD-SLINGING.

THE MAJORITY OF VOTERS

SURVEYED ALSO FEEL THAT

NEGATIVE CAMPAIGN TACTICS ARE

GROWING IN POPULARITY AMONG

THE CANDIDATES THAT HAVE TO

PRODUCE THEM.

>> NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING IS

BECOMING POPULAR TO VOTERS AND

MORE AND MORE PRONE TO

BACKFIRE.

NOW, IN ADVERTISING ACROSS THE

BOARD, VIEWERS ARE MUCH MORE

SOPHISTICATED AND MUCH LESS

LIKELY TO RESPOND TO THE KIND

OF CHEAP, EASY POLITICAL

ATTACKS.

>> A POLITICAL CONTEST, A RACE

FOR OFFICE, IS ABOUT WINNING

AND LOSING.

AND SO WE'RE ABOUT WINNING

ELECTIONS, AND WE WILL TAKE

THE COURSE NECESSARY TO GET TO

THAT POINT WHERE WE ARE

SUCCESSFUL IN NOVEMBER.

IF THAT MEANS YOU UTILIZE

NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNS, SO TO

SPEAK, YOU DO THAT.

>> Elissa Marra: ACCORDING TO

THE LATEST GALLUP POLL, THREE

OUT OF FIVE AMERICANS SURVEYED

AGREED THAT NEGATIVE

ADVERTISEMENTS DO NOT HAVE A

PLACE IN POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS.

HERE'S SOME OTHER NUMBERS FROM

THIS MONTH'S POLL.

57% OF AMERICANS ARE UNHAPPY

WITH RECENT CAMPAIGNING.

54% FEEL THAT CAMPAIGNS ARE

GETTING MORE AND MORE

NEGATIVE, AND WHEN AMERICANS

WERE ASKED IF IT WOULD BE

BETTER TO RUN MOSTLY NEGATIVE

ADS OR NO ADS AT ALL, 84%

CHOSE NO ADVERTISEMENT OVER

NEGATIVE ONES.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT

NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING?

IS THERE A PLACE FOR IT IN

THIS YEAR'S ELECTION FOR YOU?

YOU CAN PARTICIPATE IN THIS

DISCUSSION.

JUST LOG ON TO wxxi.org AND

TAKE OUR OWN COMMUNITY SURVEY.

YOU CAN ALSO POST YOUR

THOUGHTS AND READ OTHER

VIEWERS' COMMENTS ON OUR

DISCUSSION BOARDS.

OR YOU CAN CALL OUR TELEPHONE

RESPONSE LINE AT 716-258-0250.

CAMPAIGNS SOMETIMES DEFEND THE

USE OF WHAT MAY BE THOUGHT OF

AS A NEGATIVE AD BY CLAIMING

THE INFORMATION IN IT IS

USEFUL TO THE VOTER.

"NEED TO KNOW's" MATT CUMMINGS

WENT LOOKING FOR A LOCAL

PERSPECTIVE ON GOING NEGATIVE:

>> NEGATIVE CAMPAIGN

TACTICS... PERSONAL ATTACKS...

DISTORTION.

EVERY TIME POLITICIANS USE

NEGATIVE TACTICS, THEY SMEAR

THE VERY MEANING OF AMERICA.

>> IT'S ALL ABOUT WINNING AND

LOSING.

IF YOU LOSE THE ELECTION, NO

ONE EVER REMEMBERS YOU; YOU

DON'T GET A CHANCE TO DO ALL

THE GOOD THINGS YOU WANTED TO

DO IN OFFICE.

IF YOU WIN THE ELECTION, YOU

GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO IT.

IT'S ALL ABOUT WINNING AND

LOSING.

>> Matt Cummings: STEVE

MINARIK DOES DOUBLE DUTY...

REPUBLICAN PARTY CHAIRMAN FOR

MONROE COUNTY AND AS PRODUCER

OF CAMPAIGN ADS FOR POLITICAL

CANDIDATES.

IT'S HIS JOB TO WEIGH THE

POTENTIAL GAINS AND LOSSES OF

RUNNING NEGATIVE ADS FOR HIS

CLIENTS.

>> LISTEN, NOBODY LIKES TO

HEAR NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING.

NO ONE LIKES CONFRONTATION.

NO ONE LIKES CONTROVERSY.

OKAY?

BUT I WILL TELL YOU IN MY LONG

HISTORY NOW IN POLITICS THAT

NEGATIVE CAMPAIGN COMMERCIALS,

WHEN DONE PROPERLY, WHEN DONE

WITH RIGHT INFORMATION, THEY

MOVE THE VOTE.

THEY MOVE THE VOTE.

AND THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS.

>> Matt Cummings: FOR MINARIK,

WINNING ELECTIONS IS HIS

FOCUS.

TO THESE VOTERS, NEGATIVE ADS

MAKE THEM FRUSTRATED AND LOSE

THEIR INTEREST.

>> IT MAKES ME REALLY NOT WANT

TO VOTE FOR THE PERSON THAT'S

THROWING THE MUD.

YOU KNOW, I WOULD RATHER VOTE

FOR SOMEBODY THAT WAS HONEST

AND HAD A LITTLE RESPECT.

>> I THINK CANDIDATES, THEY

SHOULD REALLY TRY TO GET

ACROSS AN HONEST OPINION ABOUT

WHERE THEY STAND ON ISSUES AND

ON THE VIEWS.

>> YEAH, YOU WEIGH THE RISK

AND THERE IS A RISK.

EVERY TIME YOU DO A NEGATIVE

AD, FOR EVERY TWO NEGATIVE

POINTS YOU PUT ON YOUR

OPPONENT, YOU'RE LIKELY TO PUT

ONE ON YOUR OWN CANDIDATE.

>> Matt Cummings: THOSE RISKS

WERE HIGHLIGHTED IN A RECENT

GALLUP POLL THAT SHOWED 54% OF

AMERICANS FEEL NEGATIVE ADS

DON'T HELP THEM LEARN ABOUT

THE CANDIDATES.

ONLY 24% SAY THEY DO HELP THEM

LEARN.

THREE/FIFTHS OF AMERICANS

POLLED BELIEVE NEGATIVE ADS

HAVE NO PLACE IN THE CAMPAIGN

PROCESS.

BUT NEGATIVE ADS ARE PART OF

THE CAMPAIGN.

CHIP PARTNER IS PRESIDENT OF

SAPHAR ASSOCIATES AND HAS

PRODUCED CAMPAIGN ADS OF ALL

VARIETIES.

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE, I THINK,

ASSUME THAT ANY AD THAT TALKS

ABOUT THE OPPONENT IS

NEGATIVE, BUT THAT'S NOT

NECESSARILY THE CASE.

>> Matt Cummings: PARTNER SAYS

COMPARATIVE CAMPAIGNING, WHEN

DONE FAIRLY, CAN HAVE A REAL

VALUE FOR VOTERS.

>> IF YOU CAN SAY, "OUR

CANDIDATE STANDS FOR THESE

VALUES AND VOTES IN THESE WAYS

THAT YOU CAN SUPPORT, WHEREAS

THE OPPONENT HAS A

DEMONSTRATED RECORD OF NOT

STANDING FOR THOSE VALUES OR

NOT VOTING IN THE SAME WAY,"

THAT HELPS PEOPLE MAKE A

CHOICE.

>> Matt Cummings: PARTNER

SHOWED US WHAT HE FELT WAS

LEGITIMATE COMPARISON.

WORKING FOR DEMOCRATIC

ASSEMBLY MEMBER SUSAN JOHN AND

COMPARING HER RECORD TO HER

OPPONENT, REPUBLICAN CHARLIE

EBER.

>> CONSIDER THE

ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF TWO

CANDIDATES.

CHARLES EBER PROPOSED A DRESS

CODE FOR LEGISLATORS, A BILL

TO INVESTIGATE THE PITCHER'S

MOUND AT FRONTIER FIELD, AND A

BILL TO REGULATE SALES OF

SPRAY PAINT.

ASSEMBLY MEMBER SUSAN JOHN

WROTE THE LAW THAT MADE

STALKING WOMEN A CRIME; SHE

WROTE THE SAFE SCHOOLS ACT AND

BILLS TO EXPAND DAY CARE.

SUSAN HELPED A LOCAL HOSPITAL

FIGHT BREAST CANCER AND GOT

HEALTH INSURANCE FOR KIDS WHO

DIDN'T HAVE IT.

SUSAN JOHN, THE EFFECTIVE

CHOICE ON ISSUES THAT COUNT.

>> AND THAT'S ONE WHERE VOTERS

DECIDE, IS THAT TOO NEGATIVE A

SPOT?

WE FELT FAIR COMPARISON

BECAUSE THOSE WERE ISSUES THAT

CHARLES EBER HIMSELF TOUTED,

TALKED ABOUT, WRITTEN ABOUT IN

THE NEWSPAPER, AND THEY WERE

AMONG THE KEY PIECES OF

LEGISLATION THAT HE HIMSELF

INTRODUCED.

THEY WEREN'T A COUPLE OF

ESOTERIC THINGS THAT WE FOUND

THAT A BUNCH OF OTHER PEOPLE

HAD DONE AND HE HAD JUST

SIGNED ON.

>> Matt Cummings: SO WAS THAT

NEGATIVE?

THAT CAN BE DEBATED.

BUT IT WAS EFFECTIVE AS JOHN

PULLED OUT THE RACE AGAINST

EBER.

BOTH PARTNER AND MINARIK DON'T

MAKE ADS WITHOUT DOING THEIR

HOMEWORK FIRST, AND MAKERS OF

CAMPAIGN SPOTS HAVE TO KNOW

WHEN TO PRESS --

>> NO DECISION IS DONE BY THE

SEAT OF THE PANTS.

IT'S ALL DONE THROUGH RESEARCH

WORK; IT'S NOT A GUESS.

AND 99% OF THE TIME WE HAVE

BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN OUR

CAMPAIGNS, IN OUR STRATEGIC

PLAN.

>> Matt Cummings: -- AND WHEN

TO BACK OFF.

>> THERE'S PERSONAL ATTACKS,

WHICH ARE VERY SELDOM

EFFECTIVE, ESPECIALLY THESE

DAYS.

I THINK VOTERS ARE GETTING

TIRED OF THOSE.

AND THEN ISSUE-ORIENTED

ATTACKS OR ISSUE-ORIENTED

ADVERTISING.

>> Matt Cummings: TO BOTH MEN,

THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE

BETWEEN WHAT'S COMMONLY CALLED

NEGATIVE ADS AND WHAT THESE

TWO CALL COMPARATIVE ADS.

>> THERE'S A STANDARD OF

FAIRNESS THAT APPLIES.

IF IT'S ACCURATE, IF IT

DOESN'T GO OVER THE TOP IN

TERMS OF THE IMAGERY THAT IT

USES, THEN THOSE ADS CAN BE

USEFUL TO THE VOTERS AND

CREATE A HEALTHY DEBATE THAT

HELPS THE CANDIDATE THAT

YOU'RE WORKING FOR.

>> WE LIKE TO CALL THEM

CONTRAST ADS BECAUSE WE HAVE

USUALLY HAVE SOMETHING THAT

THE OPPONENT HAS DONE VERSUS

SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE DONE.

>> I THINK THERE'S BECOMING

KIND OF A ZONE OF PRIVACY

WHERE IN MOST CASES, WHAT

POLITICIANS DO WITH THEIR

PRIVATE LIVES, IF IT DOESN'T

AFFECT THEIR ABILITY TO DO THE

JOB, PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO HEAR

ABOUT THAT.

>> Matt Cummings: WITH THE

ULTIMATE GOAL OF THE CANDIDATE

BEING TO GET ELECTED AND WITH

TV TIME SO COSTLY, NEGATIVE

ADS SEEM INEVITABLE.

PARTNER AND MINARIK SAY IT'S

ACCEPTED YET UP TO THE

CAMPAIGNS TO REGULATE

THEMSELVES.

>> NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING HAS

BEEN AROUND SINCE THE

FORMATION OF THE REPUBLIC.

IT'S THE PRICE THAT WE PAY FOR

DEMOCRACY, THAT WE DON'T

CONTROL THE CONTENT OF THE

DEBATE.

>> IT IS, IN ESSENSE, WIN AT

ALL COSTS, BUT THERE IS A

LINE.

SOME PEOPLE SUBSCRIBE TO THAT

LINE AND SOME PEOPLE DON'T.

I HAPPEN TO SUBSCRIBE TO IT;

YOU CANNOT CROSS THAT LINE.

AFTER IT'S ALL DONE, AFTER THE

RACE IS DONE, WHETHER YOU WIN

OR LOSE, YOU STILL HAVE TO

LIVE WITH YOURSELF.

(Music)

>> Gary Walker: WE KNOW THAT

POLLS AND SURVEYS SAY PEOPLE

DON'T LIKE NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNS

AND CAMPAIGN ADS.

BUT THE POLLS AND SURVEYS

DON'T REALLY DEFINE JUST WHAT

NEGATIVE MEANS.

I'M GARY WALKER.

YOU'RE WATCHING "NEED TO

KNOW."

AND JOINING ME IN STUDIO ARE

Dr. ESTHER MALTESE.

SHE'S THE LOCAL PRESIDENT OF

THE LOCAL CHAPTER OF THE

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS.

RAY MARTINO FROM MARTINO AND

FLYNN, A MAKER OF POLITICAL

ADS IN HIS PAST LIFE, MOSTLY

FOR DEMOCRATS, AND ALSO STEVE

MINARIK, WHO IS DOUBLE-DUTY,

AS YOU'VE JUST HEARD.

HE'S THE REPUBLICAN PARTY

CHAIRMAN AND A MAKER OF

POLITICAL ADS WITH IMPACT INC.

WE ALSO HAVE SOME CURRENT ADS

FOR YOU TO LOOK AT DURING THIS

TALK.

WE HAVE AN AD EACH FROM THE

BUSH AND GORE CAMPAIGNS AND

FROM THE STATEWIDE SENATE

RACE; WE HAVE ADS FOR THE

CLINTON AND FOR THE LAZIO

CAMPAIGNS.

BUT AS I MENTIONED EARLIER IN

THE PROGRAM, POLLS AND SURVEYS

SAY PEOPLE DON'T LIKE NEGATIVE

ADS.

THE PEOPLE WE TALK TO ON THE

STREETS SAY THEY DECRY

NEGATIVE ADS.

WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT

NEGATIVE MEANS.

LET'S SEE IF WE CAN DETERMINE

IT AROUND THE TABLE.

THE LEAGUE, FIRST AND

FOREMOST, HAS BEEN UP-FRONT

WITH NATIONAL ADVERTISING

AGAINST NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING.

I ASK YOU, Dr. MALTESE, WHAT

IS A NEGATIVE AD IN THE

LEAGUE'S EYES?

>> I THINK WE NEED TO ANALYZE

THE AD ITSELF.

DOES IT DEAL WITH AND FOCUS ON

SUBSTANTIVE ISSUES, OR IS IT

JUST MERELY PUT TOGETHER TO

SPIN RHETORIC OR TO DIMINISH

THE IMPORTANCE AND THE

CONTRIBUTIONS OF THE OTHER

CANDIDATE?

I THINK IT'S AS BASIC AS THAT.

>> Gary Walker: AND LET'S TURN

TO THE PEOPLE THAT MAKE THESE

ADS AND SAY HOW IS THAT A

DEFINITION FOR YOU?

>> I THINK THAT'S GREAT.

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS HAS

THEIR FAIR CAMPAIGN PLEDGE.

>> YES.

>> BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, I

THINK, THAT KIND OF

DESCRIPTION, I THINK, IS VERY

RELEVANT.

I THINK IT IS APPROPRIATE IN A

CAMPAIGN TO TALK ABOUT ANOTHER

PERSON'S RECORD.

AS LONG AS IT'S FACTUAL, AS

LONG AS IT'S THE TRUTH,

WITHOUT THE SPIN ON THAT, I

THINK THAT'S FAIR GAME.

IT'S BEEN THAT WAY SINCE

LINCOLN/DOUGLASS DEBATES, AND

SO I THINK THAT'S APPROPRIATE.

>> Gary Walker: RAY MARTINO?

>> WELL, I THINK, FIRST OF

ALL, TELEVISION IS SO

POWERFUL, THAT THE REASON THAT

PEOPLE REACT TO IT VISCERALLY

IS THAT IT HAS SO MUCH IMPACT.

IN THE OLD DAYS WHEN HARRY

TRUMAN RODE THE TRAIN, IN '48,

AND ATTACKED HIS OPPONENT

VICIOUSLY, IT DIDN'T HAVE THE

SAME KIND OF IMPACT.

BUT TODAY IT'S VERY INVASIVE.

YOU HEAR PEOPLE ENGAGED IN

CHARACTER ASSASSINATION, IN A

SENSE, AND IT'S HARDBALL.

SO PEOPLE REACT TO IT VERY

STRONGLY BECAUSE IT'S

EFFECTIVE.

IT'S NOT NEW, THOUGH.

>> Gary Walker: EVERYONE SEEMS

TO BE FAIRLY IN AGREEMENT

HERE.

MAYBE WE CAN JUST CALL IT A

PROGRAM AND...

(Laughter)

NO, BUT LET ME PURSUE FURTHER.

AS YOU SAID, IT HAS TO RELATE

TO ISSUES.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THE

PRESENTATION OF THOSE

ISSUES... I MEAN HOW COULD

PEOPLE REACTING TO JUST -- WE

TALKED, THEY'RE NOT JUST --

THEY'RE REACTING TO CONTRAST

ADS BECAUSE THE BULK OF

POLITICAL ADVERTISING IS

CONTRAST ADS; IT IS

COMPARATIVE ADS.

"THEY DO THIS; WE DO THAT."

>> THAT'S NOT TRUE.

THAT'S NOT TRUE.

I WILL TELL YOU THAT IN ALMOST

EVERY CAMPAIGN THAT I HAVE

PARTICIPATED IN, THE MAJORITY

OF THE DOLLARS SPENT IN THE

CAMPAIGN HAS BEEN FOR POSITIVE

ADVERTISING.

>> Gary Walker: FOR NAME

RECOGNITION.

BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT PEOPLE ARE

REACTING TO HERE.

>> BUT I THINK THE PRESS

BUILDS UP THIS IDEA THAT ALL

THIS NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING

TAKES PLACE.

I WILL TELL YOU THERE IS MORE

POSITIVE ADVERTISING THAN

NEGATIVE, MORE DOLLARS SPENT

ON POSITIVE THAN ON NEGATIVE,

AND THAT IS LOST IN ALMOST

EVERY DISCUSSION ABOUT

CAMPAIGNING AND THAT'S NOT

APPROPRIATE, REALLY.

>> BUT I THINK, STEVE, THOUGH,

THAT THE ACTUAL ADVERTISEMENT

ITSELF CAN BE CLOUDED WITH

PARTICULAR KINDS OF MUSIC, THE

CONTRAST OF LIGHT AND DARK...

THERE'S A LOT OF SUBLIMINAL

THINGS THAT OCCUR TO HAVE AN

IMPACT ON THE VIEWER.

>> SURE.

I AGREE.

THAT'S WHAT SOME WOULD SAY

WOULD BE A NEGATIVE AD.

>> IT COULD BE.

>> I'M TALKING ABOUT

INTRODUCTORY ADS.

THE FIRST ADS YOU RUN IN

CAMPAIGNS ARE NOT, YOU KNOW,

BASH THE OPPONENT.

THE FIRST ADS YOU RUN IN THE

CAMPAIGN, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT

ISSUES; YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT

YOUR CANDIDATE.

AND THAT'S NOT COVERED BY THE

PRESS.

YOU WON'T EVER SEE THE PRESS

SAYING "WHAT A GREAT AD THAT

WAS.

IT WAS ALL POSITIVE."

JACK DOYLE, AS AN ELECTED

OFFICIAL, HAS NEVER RUN A

NEGATIVE AD.

NOT ONE NEGATIVE AD.

>> BUT HE'S NEVER HAD AN

OPPONENT OVER 30%!

(Laughter)

>> BUT IF THERE WAS A

NECK-AND-NECK RACE AND IT WAS

ON THE LINE...

>> WE WOULD DO SOME CONTRAST

ADS.

>> BUT WE'RE LOSING OUR

PERSPECTIVE HERE.

MORE MONEY IS SPENT ON

POSITIVE ADS THAN ANYTHING

THAT ANYONE COULD POSSIBLY SAY

WOULD BE...

>> Gary Walker: YOU KNOW, I'M

GOING TO GIVE YOU THAT, TOO,

BECAUSE THAT IS TRUE.

IF YOU TAKE THE LAZIO

CAMPAIGN, "THIS IS WHO I AM.

THIS IS MY FAMILY.

I GO OUT TO PICNICS..."

IT'S WHAT YOU DO IN POSITIVE

ADS, INTRODUCE YOURSELF.

BUT THE PEOPLE THAT WE TALKED

TO AND THE PEOPLE THAT WERE

POLLED WERE REALLY REACTING TO

WHEN WE GET INTO THE THICK OF

THE CAMPAIGN, WE'VE GOT A REAL

RACE AND WE JUST HAVE TO START

CHARACTERIZING WHAT THIS OTHER

CANDIDATE IS AND WHAT WE ARE,

AND SO THE CONTRAST ADS WILL

DO THAT.

LET ME ASK YOU THIS: WE JUST

SAW IN THE PACKAGE THAT AD

THAT THE SAPHAR GROUP DID WITH

THE CHARLIE EBER/SUSAN JOHN

RACE.

WAS THAT A NEGATIVE AD?

>> I THOUGHT IT WAS -- I

WOULDN'T CLASSIFY IT AS

NEGATIVE CUTTHROAT AD, BUT

THEY TOOK FACTS AND THEY

DIMINISHED SOME OF THE THINGS

THAT ONE OF THE CANDIDATES WAS

INVOLVED IN.

I DON'T REMEMBER THE

SPECIFICS; I HADN'T JOTTED

THEM DOWN, BUT IT WAS QUITE

BELITTLING, I THOUGHT.

>> WELL...

>> Gary Walker: RAY, WHY DON'T

YOU SPEAK --

>> YOU SAID THAT'S SOME OF

YOUR BEST WORK.

>> I THINK THE PROBLEM IN 30

SECONDS, WHEN YOU HAVE ABOUT

60 WORDS, IT'S HARD TO TELL

THE WHOLE STORY, SO YOU CAN

ALWAYS ACCUSE SOMEONE OF

COMMITTING THE SIN OF

OMISSION.

I HAVE SEEN A LOT WORSE ADS

THAN THAT.

>> BUT I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT

TO NOTE THAT THIS IS NOT A NEW

ISSUE.

I'M OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THE

'64 CAMPAIGN, WHEN LYNDON

JOHNSON'S CAMPAIGN RAN

PROBABLY THE ULTIMATE NEGATIVE

AD, A LITTLE GIRL PICKING

DAISIES IN THE MEADOW WITH THE

MUSHROOM CLOUD BEHIND HER,

WHICH WAS ESSENTIALLY SAYING,

"IF YOU ELECT BARRY GOLDWATER,

HE'LL BLOW UP THE PLANET," SO

YOU CAN'T SAY MUCH WORSE ABOUT

SOMEONE THAN THAT.

SO IT'S REALLY NOT NEW.

AND I REMEMBER IN '68, THE

DEMOCRATS RAN AN AD AGAINST

SPIRO AGNEW.

THEY PUT THE WORD "AGNEW" UP

WITH A QUESTION MARK AND JUST

HAD LAUGHTER...

SO IT'S NOT NEW AND I THINK

THE REALITY IS IT'S GOING TO

BE THERE BECAUSE IT WORKS.

THE VOTER HAS AN OBLIGATION TO

LEARN MORE ABOUT THE

CAMPAIGNS.

THERE'S THIS STATION AND PRINT

MEDIA AND OTHER STATIONS THAT

GIVE INFORMATION ABOUT THE

CANDIDATES.

THE PARTIES PROVIDE A LOT OF

INFORMATION.

SO A VOTER CAN'T SAY THEY

DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT A

CANDIDATE BECAUSE THEY ONLY

SEE THE TV ADS.

THEY HAVE TO TAKE A

RESPONSIBILITY...

>> Gary Walker: THE GROUP WAS

SAYING THAT AD IS IN BOUNDS

BECAUSE THOSE WERE BILLS THAT

HE INTRODUCED AND SPOKE ON THE

FLOOR OF THE LEGISLATURE

FLOOR.

I WAS PRESENT FOR TWO OF THEM,

TO HEAR HIM SPEAK ABOUT THAT,

SO THEY SAY THAT'S IN BOUNDS.

BUT SOMETIMES IF YOU SIGN ON

TO AN ABSTRACT PIECE OF

LEGISLATION, OR YOU'LL VOTE

AGAINST A BILL THAT THEY PUT A

RIDER ON AND YOU CAN'T LIVE

WITH AND THEN THEY ATTACK YOU

FOR VOTING AGAINST THE BILL...

THAT WOULD BE OUT OF BOUNDS

FOR NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING.

BUT HERE HE DID THIS; WE'RE

JUST SAYING WHAT HE DID, SO

WHY IS THAT NEGATIVE?

>> WELL, I THINK IT GIVES THE

LESSER SIDE OF WHAT A PERSON

DID, THE LESSER SIDE.

YOU CAN TAKE AN ACCOMPLISHMENT

OF SOMEONE AND PUT A SLIGHT

SPIN ON IT, AND YOU MAKE IT

LESS IMPORTANT.

IT'S NOT LOOKING AT THE WHOLE

PICTURE.

THAT WAS THE IMPRESSION I GOT.

I HAD NOT SEEN THAT AD IN A

LONG TIME.

>> I HAVE TO BE HONEST WITH

YOU.

I DID NOT FIND THAT AD

OBJECTIONABLE.

I SUPPORTED CHARLIE, ACTUALLY.

I DIDN'T FIND IT

OBJECTIONABLE, THOUGHT IT WAS

WELL WITHIN THE BOUNDS.

YOU KNOW WHAT?

I'LL TELL YOU WHAT WOULD HAVE

BEEN OBJECTIONABLE, AND WE

DIDN'T DO THIS, BUT THAT WOULD

BE TALKING ABOUT SUSAN JOHN'S

ALCOHOL PROBLEM.

I HAVE TO BE HONEST WITH YOU.

THERE WAS A LOT OF STRUGGLE, A

LOT OF PRESSURE ON US TO DO

THAT, AND WE RESISTED THAT

BECAUSE I THOUGHT THAT WOULD

HAVE BEEN GOING TOO FAR.

NOW THAT --

>> THAT IS BEYOND THE

BOUNDARY.

>> NOW THAT, I THINK, IS A

NEGATIVE RIGHT THERE.

>> I AGREE.

>> AND THOSE KINDS OF

CONTRASTS, THOUGH, AND ALBEIT

THE SINS OF OMISSION OR HOW

YOU SPIN IT... ANOTHER THING

IS THAT I BELIEVE IN THE

INTELLECTUAL INTEGRITY OF THE

VOTER.

I BELIEVE THAT THEY CAN SIFT

THROUGH THE INFORMATION AND

DECIDE WHO IS TELLING THE

TRUTH AND NOT.

WE DON'T NEED TO HEAR IT FROM

THE NEWSPAPERS; WE DON'T NEED

TO HEAR IT FROM GARY WALKER OR

ANYBODY ELSE... THE VOTER CAN

DO THAT.

I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE: IN

RACES WHERE LESS MONEY IS

SPENT ON A CANDIDATE VIS-A-VIS

THE OTHER, LIKE LAST YEAR.

RUSSO SPENT SIGNIFICANTLY LESS

DOLLARS THAN RICK DOLLINGER'S

CAMPAIGN.

BUT I THINK HIS MESSAGE WAS

FAR STRONGER THAN THE

DOLLINGER ATTACK ADS, AND

VOTERS WERE ABLE TO SIFT

THROUGH THAT.

I DO BELIEVE THAT.

>> I DO AGREE WITH YOU, TOO,

THAT WE SOMETIMES DON'T TAKE

INTO ACCOUNT THAT THE CITIZENS

ARE VERY INTELLIGENT PEOPLE

AND THEY DO CARE.

BUT I THINK WE WANT TO LOOK AT

-- AND IN THE PAST WE HAVEN'T

HAD -- I PERSONALLY FEEL WE

HAVEN'T REALLY HAD ADS THAT

FOCUS ON "WHAT ARE THE

ISSUES?"

I THINK THE ROCHESTER

COMMUNITY AND PEOPLE IN THIS

COUNTRY WANT TO LOOK AT HEALTH

CARE, WANT TO LOOK AT

MEDICARE, EDUCATION...

>> LET ME ADDRESS THAT WITH

YOU, THOUGH, BECAUSE THAT'S AN

IMPORTANT POINT.

WHAT YOU DETERMINE AS ADVISOR,

AS OPINION-MAKER FOR THE

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS, WHAT

YOU DETERMINE ARE THE ISSUES

IS NOT NECESSARILY WHAT IS

IMPORTANT IN A POLITICAL

CAMPAIGN'S PERSPECTIVE ON THE

ISSUES.

YOU KNOW, EVERYONE SEEMS TO

THINK -- NOT EVERYONE... MAYOR

JOHNSON AND OTHERS WOULD HAVE

YOU BELIEVE THAT THIS REGIONAL

GOVERNMENT IS -- WHATEVER THEY

CALL IT, SMART GROWTH, IS AN

IMPORTANT ISSUE.

I WILL TELL YOU THAT NO ONE

BELIEVES THAT SMART GROWTH IS AN

IMPORTANT ISSUE, OTHER THAN

THE GOD-FORSAKEN EDITORIAL

BOARD AT GANNETT AND MAYOR

JACKSON.

THE AVERAGE PERSON, IT DOESN'T

MATTER TO THEM.

>> Gary Walker: IT COULD BE

HOW YOU POLL, TOO.

IF THE POLL SAYS, "IS TRAFFIC

CONGESTION A PROBLEM?" THEY'LL

SAY YES AND --

>> NO, NO, WE --

>> Gary Walker: I KNOW YOU

GUYS DO A LOT OF POLLING.

DURING THIS TALK, I SAID WE

HAD SOME SPOTS.

LET'S LOOK AT A COUPLE.

WE HAVE TWO ADS NOW, ONE FROM

THE GEORGE W. BUSH CAMPAIGN

AND ONE FROM THE AL GORE

CAMPAIGN.

AND LET'S TAKE A LOOK AND

WE'LL DO OUR OWN CRITICIZING.

HERE THEY ARE.

>> I BELIEVE OFTENTIMES

CAMPAIGNS RESORT TO

MUD-THROWING AND NAME-CALLING,

AND AMERICANS ARE SICK OF THAT

KIND OF CAMPAIGNING.

WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR IS

WHAT'S ON PEOPLE'S MINDS AND

WHERE THE CANDIDATES' HEARTS

ARE.

I'M GOING TO RUN A CAMPAIGN

THAT IS HOPEFUL AND OPTIMISTIC

AND VERY POSITIVE.

>> IS THE STATUS QUO IN

AMERICA'S SCHOOLS GOOD ENOUGH?

UNDER AL GORE/BILL CLINTON,

NATIONAL READING SCORES

STAGNATED.

AMERICA'S HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS

PLACED ALMOST DEAD-LAST IN

INTERNATIONAL MATH TESTS.

THE ACHIEVEMENT GAP BETWEEN

POOR AND NON-POOR STUDENTS

REMAINS WIDE.

GORE AND CLINTON HAD EIGHT

YEARS, BUT THEY FAILED.

AS PRESIDENT, GEORGE W. BUSH

WILL CHALLENGE THE STATUS QUO

WITH A CRUSADE TO IMPROVE

EDUCATION.

HE'LL FIGHT FOR REFORMS HAILED

AS THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL IN A

GENERATION, DEMAND HIGH

STANDARDS AND ACCOUNTABILITY

FOR STUDENTS AND TEACHERS,

RESTORE LOCAL CONTROL OF

SCHOOLS, INCREASE FUNDING, A

SYSTEM SO SUCCESSFUL SCHOOLS

ARE REWARDED AND FAILING ONES

MUST IMPROVE.

HE'LL TURN HEAD START INTO A

READING PROGRAM AND CLOSE THE

ACHIEVEMENT GAP BETWEEN THOSE

ON THE EDGES OF POVERTY.

HIS GOAL: TEACH EVERY CHILD

TO READ BECAUSE THERE ARE NO

SECOND-RATE CHILDREN...

GOVERNOR GEORGE W. BUSH, A

FRESH START FOR EDUCATION.

>> GEORGE W. BUSH, FROM SOUTH

CAROLINA TO NEW YORK, HE USED

DIRTY POLITICS TO TRASH JOHN

McCAIN'S RECORD.

NOW HE'S RUNNING ATTACK ADS

AGAINST AL GORE.

AL GORE HAS FOUGHT TO PUT

100,000 NEW TEACHERS IN THE

CLASSROOM, FOR TOUGHER

STANDARDS TO MAKE SURE OUR

CHILDREN ARE LEARNING AND TO

GIVE PARENTS MORE CHOICE IN

CHOOSING PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME,

READING SCORES IN THE KEY

GRADES OF FOURTH, EIGHTH AND

TWELFTH ARE GOING UP ACROSS

AMERICA, AND GORE HAS A PLAN

TO BRING REVOLUTIONARY

IMPROVEMENTS TO OUR SCHOOLS:

SMALLER CLASS SIZES, HIGHER

STANDARDS FOR TEACHERS AND

STUDENTS, REBUILDING CRUMBLING

SCHOOLS, TURNING AROUND

FAILING SCHOOLS.

BUSH'S TEXAS RECORD: 45th IN

THE NATION IN S.A.T. SCORES,

AN ACCOUNTABILITY SYSTEM SO

FULL OF CHEATING IT'S UNDER

INVESTIGATION.

TEXAS IS RANKED THE 48th WORST

STATE IN NORTH AMERICA TO

RAISE A CHILD.

ON THE ISSUE OF EDUCATION,

AMERICA DESERVES A REAL

DEBATE, NOT MORE NEGATIVE ADS

FROM GEORGE W. BUSH.

AL GORE IS READY.

IS GEORGE W.?

>> Gary Walker: AND THERE YOU

GO.

THESE ARE -- I DON'T THINK

THEY'RE VERY UNTYPICAL ADS FOR

A PRESIDENTIAL RACE.

YOU SEE THEM ALL THE TIME.

HOW DO YOU RANK THEM?

ARE THOSE NEGATIVE ADS?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT THE TONE

OF THE FIRST AD, THE BUSH AD,

WAS A BIT SOFTER, AND THE

BEGINNING TONE OF THE GORE AD

STARTED OFF TO ME, IT SEEMED

TO ME THAT IT WAS GOING INTO A

NEGATIVE DIRECTION, BUT THEN

THEY TOOK IT AND USED THAT AS

A CATALYST TO TALK ABOUT THE

CLINTON/GORE ADMINISTRATION.

AND OF COURSE THAT WAS VERY

PRO THEM.

I MEAN THAT'S THE OBJECT OF

THE WHOLE --

>> Gary Walker: WOULD THE

LEAGUE PUT THE STAMP OF

APPROVAL ON THOSE ADS?

>> WOULD THE LEAGUE PUT THE

STAMP OF APPROVAL ON THE ADS?

I THINK THE LEAGUE WOULD

PROBABLY FEEL THAT THEY COULD

HAVE EVEN BEEN BETTER.

AND THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE

EFFECTIVE.

>> Gary Walker: GENTLEMEN?

>> I THINK THEY'RE VERY

TYPICAL.

THE PROBLEM IS AGAIN, THE

PEOPLE OBJECT TO THE TONE AND

MANNER OF THE ADS MORE THAN

THE SUBSTANCE.

MOST PEOPLE -- MOST GOOD

POLITICAL ADS ARE ON SAFE

GROUNDS WITH THE FACTS.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO COME OUT

AND GIVE YOU A MISSTATEMENT.

THAT WOULD BE FOOLISH.

THEY WOULD HAVE TO PULL THE

AD.

BUT IF YOU DEPICT GEORGE BUSH

WITH GRAINY, SLOW-MOTION FILM,

YOU'RE MAKING HIM LOOK BAD.

AND PEOPLE AREN'T USED TO

THAT.

THE POINT HERE IS THAT YOU SEE

A LOT OF ADS DURING THE DAY.

POLITICAL ADS STAND OUT

BECAUSE IT'S REALLY THE ONLY

INDUSTRY, IF YOU WILL, THAT

USES THIS TECHNIQUE --

>> Gary Walker: RIGHT.

BUT I WANT TO TURN TO STEVE.

STEVE SAID THIS VERY CLEARLY,

AND HE HAS SAID IT FOR A LONG

TIME AND HE SAID IT RIGHT AT

THE BEGINNING OF THE PACKAGE,

AT THE BEGINNING OF THE

PROGRAM, NEGATIVE ADS DONE

RIGHT MOVE THE VOTE.

AS AN AD MAKER, YOU BOTH KNOW

WHEN YOU PUT SOMETHING OUT

THERE, IT STICKS WITH YOU.

NOW, 48th WORST PLACE TO RAISE

A CHILD.

YOU WERE COMMENTING ON THAT

WHEN THE AD RAN.

THAT MIGHT BE A LITTLE FACTOR

THAT JUST STICKS IN SOMEONE'S

BRAIN.

CAN YOU SAY IT'S EFFECTIVE?

YEAH.

CAN YOU SAY IT'S NEGATIVE?

I DON'T KNOW.

WHAT DO YOU SAY?

>> WELL, IF SOMEONE DOESN'T

CARE IF IT'S NEGATIVE OR NOT,

I WOULD SAY IT'S A NEGATIVE AD

AND THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS.

THOSE GRAINY EFFECTS, WE HAVE

KIND OF GOTTEN AWAY FROM

THAT...

>> SERIOUS MUSIC AND GRAINY...

>> SERIOUS MUSIC, YOU'LL

ALWAYS HAVE, BUT GRAINY...

I THINK THEY'RE ALL TYPICAL OF

A CAMPAIGN.

I WOULD EXPECT THEM.

I THINK GORE'S AD THERE IS

PROBABLY AN INSULATION AD AS

OPPOSED TO A NEGATIVE AD, A

RESPONSE BECAUSE BUSH WAS

RUNNING HIS EDUCATION AD.

SO I THINK THAT'S THE -- YOU

ALWAYS HAVE TO REMEMBER TO

LOOK AT THE CONTEXT OF THE

CAMPAIGN, NOT JUST SEE ONE AD

ON THE SCREEN AND SAY WHETHER

IT'S NEGATIVE.

THAT'S MORE AN INOCULATION

AD.

>> Gary Walker: WE ONLY HAVE A

COUPLE OF MINUTES.

LET'S SEE IF WE CAN GET THOSE

OTHER TWO ADS ON.

THESE ARE FROM THE LAZIO AND

CLINTON CAMPAIGNS FOR THE U.S.

SENATE.

CAN YOU ROLL THOSE?

>> CONGRESS JUST DEFEATED A

PLAN BY ONLY TWO VOTES TO

LOWER HOME HEATING OIL COSTS

FOR NEW YORK IN THE NORTHEAST.

HOW DID RICK LAZIO VOTE?

HE DIDN'T.

HE SKIPPED THE VOTE.

RICK LAZIO... THE MORE YOU

KNOW, THE MORE YOU WONDER.

>> I HAVE BEEN IN THE SENATE

CAMPAIGN FOR ABOUT A MONTH

NOW, AND GUESS WHAT?

HILLARY CLINTON HAS ALREADY

STARTED RUNNING ATTACK ADS

DESIGNED TO FOOL YOU ABOUT ME.

HER ADS ARE SIMPLY UNTRUE.

I VOTED FOR A PATIENTS' BILL

OF RIGHTS AND I OPPOSE HATE

CRIMES.

SO WHY IS SHE DOING THIS?

BECAUSE IT'S A LOT EASIER FOR

Mrs. CLINTON TO ATTACK ME THAN

NAME A SINGLE THING SHE'S EVER

DONE FOR NEW YORK.

SO, Mrs. CLINTON, YOU CAN RUN

A NEGATIVE CAMPAIGN ABOUT

TEARING PEOPLE DOWN; I'M GOING

TO RUN A CAMPAIGN ABOUT

BUILDING NEW YORK UP.

>> Gary Walker: AND THERE YOU

GO, SMILES AROUND.

>> THAT'S WHY SHE PULLED THAT

AD!

(Laughing)

>> Gary Walker: WAS THE FIRST

AD A NEGATIVE AD FROM THE

CLINTON CAMPAIGN?

IS IT OUT OF BOUNDS?

>> I DON'T THINK IT WAS OUT OF

BOUNDS.

I DON'T THINK IT WAS OUT OF

BOUNDS, BUT THEY'RE ALL, I

THINK, ON THE SAME LEVEL.

I AGREE WITH STEVE AND I AGREE

--

>> SHE PULLED THE AD BECAUSE

SHE WAS GETTING BEAT WITH

LAZIO COMING BACK WITH AN AD

THAT ANSWERS THE QUESTION.

I MEAN, IT GOES TO THE POINT.

IT'S THEIR SIDE OF THE FACTS.

THERE ARE TWO SIDES TO THE

FACTS, ONE FOR THE DEMOCRAT

OPPONENT AND ONE THE

REPUBLICAN OPPONENT.

EVERYBODY HAS A WAY TO TALK

ABOUT IT.

THEY TOOK THEIR SIDE AND

RICK'S CAMPAIGN TOOK THEIR

SIDE.

IT WAS FAR MORE EFFECT BECAUSE

YOU HAD RICK LAZIO ON THE

SCREEN LOOKING RIGHT INTO THE

CAMERA TELLING YOU WHAT IT'S

ALL ABOUT...

>> Gary Walker: LET ME GIVE

YOU THE EXIT QUESTION AS WE'RE

ALMOST OUT OF TIME.

DO YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE REALLY

REACTING -- IN THE BULK OF

POLITICAL ADS, ARE THEY

REACTING TO THE THINGS THAT

HAVE BEEN AROUND THE LAST FOUR

YEARS WITH THE PRESIDENTIAL

ATTACKS, ATTACKS ON

REPUBLICANS AND SHUTTING DOWN

GOVERNMENT... DO YOU THINK

IT'S BEING LUMPED IN?

I NEED QUICK ANSWERS FROM --

>> YES, I THINK SO.

AND I THINK PEOPLE -- IT'S

SOMEWHAT OF AN EXCUSE BECAUSE

PEOPLE ARE USING THAT AS AN

EXCUSE NOT TO VOTE OR NOT TO

GET INVOLVED.

I ALSO THINK THAT THEY STAND

OUT FROM OTHER TYPES OF

ADVERTISING.

THAT'S WHY WE DON'T DO THEM

ANYMORE.

THEY MAKE PEOPLE FEEL BAD.

WE DON'T WANT TO MAKE PEOPLE

FEEL BAD.

>> Gary Walker: YOU JUST HAD

THE LAST WORD.

THAT WAS A QUICK HALF HOUR.

MANY THANKS TO OUR GUESTS FOR

GIVING US A LOCAL SPIN ON

NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING 2000.

ELISSA?

>> Elissa Marra: GARY, WE WANT

TO KNOW WHAT THE VIEWERS THINK

ABOUT NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING.

TELL US WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT

IT.

YOU CAN TAKE OUR COMMUNITY

SURVEY.

JUST LOG ON TO OUR WXXI WEB

SITE AT www.wxxi.org.

THERE YOU CAN ALSO POST YOUR

OPINION ON OUR DISCUSSION

BOARD AND READ WHAT OTHERS IN

OUR COMMUNITY ARE SAYING.

OR JUST TELEPHONE IN TO OUR

RESPONSE LINE AT 716-258-0250.

AND THAT IS THIS WEEK'S

EDITION OF "NEED TO KNOW."

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

(Music)