>>
Gary Walker: JUST AHEAD ON "NEED TO KNOW," WHAT IS TOM GOLISANO
DOING RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR AGAIN? MAINSTREAM POLITICIANS WISH
HE AND HIS MILLIONS WOULD GO AWAY. MANY HERE WOULD RATHER HE
STAY HOME AND CONTINUE HIS PHILANTHROPY. TOM GOLISANO TALKS
WITH US TONIGHT ABOUT WHY GIVING MILLIONS TO COMMUNITY INTERESTS
AND HEADING UP A SUCCESSFUL CORPORATION MIGHT NOT BE ENOUGH
FOR HIM. PLUS ELLEN ROSEN IS HERE FOR THE "BUSINESS SECTION"
WITH THE "DEMOCRAT AND CHRONICLE." IT'S ALL AHEAD ON "NEED TO
KNOW."
(Music)
>> THIS IS "NEED TO KNOW," THE ROCHESTER AREA'S ONLY IN-DEPTH
NEWS PROGRAM. "NEED TO KNOW" IS A PRODUCTION OF WXXI NEWS AND
PUBLIC AFFAIRS, COVERING ISSUES, POLITICS, EDUCATION AND CURRENT
EVENTS.
>> "NEED TO KNOW" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE DAISY MARQUIS JONES
FOUNDATION, BY DORSCHEL LEXUS, AND THROUGH THE SUPPORT OF VIEWERS
LIKE YOU.
>>
Gary Walker: THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. I'M GARY WALKER. HE GREW
A SMALL BUSINESS INTO A BIG BUSINESS THAT CONTINUES TO GROW.
HE'S A POLITICAL FORCE IN THIS YEAR'S NEW YORK GUBERNATORIAL
RACE. UNDER THE BANNER OF THE INDEPENDENCE PARTY HE HELPED TO
BUILD, TOM GOLISANO HAS TWICE BEFORE RUN FOR GOVERNOR, BOTH
TIMES UNSUCCESSFULLY. NOW HE'S GEARING FOR A THIRD TRY AND MAKING
HEADLINES DOING IT. GOLISANO STILL HAS TO FACE A SEPTEMBER PRIMARY
FOR ONE PARTY LINE AND A WRITE-IN ATTEMPT FOR ANOTHER, BUT HE
CONTINUES TO PUSH AHEAD IN HIS BID TO UNSEAT GOVERNOR GEORGE
PATAKI. TOM GOLISANO WILL MAKE HIS THIRD RUN FOR GOVERNOR OF
NEW YORK THIS FALL, HOPING THE THIRD TIME IS THE CHARM. GOLISANO
SPENT MORE THAN $6.5 MILLION IN HIS FIRST GUBERNATORIAL RACE,
GARNERING 4% OF THE VOTE. IN 1998, GOLISANO DOUBLED HIS SPENDING
AND SAW RESULTS, CAPTURING 8% OF THE VOTE. THIS TIME AROUND,
SUPPORTERS SAY HE IS WILLING TO SPEND UP TO $75 MILLION ON HIS
CAMPAIGN FOR GOVERNOR. GOLISANO BELIEVES HE CAN MOUNT A SERIOUS
CHALLENGE TO THE INCUMBENT GEORGE PATAKI. HE IS WORKING TO GET
HIS NAME ON THE INDEPENDENCE PARTY LINE IN NOVEMBER. GOLISANO
IS A FOUNDING MEMBER OF THE PARTY AND IS FORCING A PRIMARY WITH
PATAKI FOR THE INDEPENDENCE LINE. GOLISANO IS ALSO CHALLENGING
THE GOVERNOR FOR THE CONSERVATIVE NOMINATION. HE IS CIRCULATING
PETITIONS TO TRY AND FORCE THAT PRIMARY. GOLISANO IS IN A FINANCIAL
POSITION TO LAUNCH HIS BID FOR THE GOVERNORSHIP BASED PRIMARILY
ON HIS BUSINESS SUCCESS. GOLISANO FOUNDED PAYCHEX IN 1971. THE
COMPANY IS NOW A LEADING NATIONAL PROVIDER OF PAYROLL AND HUMAN
RESOURCE SERVICES FOR SMALL AND MEDIUM-SIZED BUSINESSES. IN
THE 2001 FISCAL YEAR, PAYCHEX EMPLOYED MORE THAN 7,300 WORKERS,
SERVING MORE THAN 375,000 CLIENTS AND EARNED NEARLY $870 MILLION
IN REVENUE. WHILE GOLISANO HAS USED HIS OWN MONEY TO PURSUE
HIS POLITICAL ASPIRATIONS, HE ALSO HAS INITIATED SEVERAL LOCAL
PHILANTHROPIC VENTURES. GOLISANO HAS DONATED $40 MILLION TO
LOCAL INTERESTS, INCLUDING $14 MILLION TO STRONG CHILDREN'S
HOSPITAL, $14 MILLION TO THE ROCHESTER INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY,
$5 MILLION TO ROBERTS WESLEYAN COLLEGE, $2 MILLION TO THE AL
SIGL CENTER, AND $5 MILLION TO OTHER NOT-FOR-PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS
SERVING PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES. IF ELECTED GOVERNOR, GOLISANO
HAS STATED HE WOULD STEP DOWN AS CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER OF
PAYCHEX. HOWEVER, HE WOULD REMAIN A MAJOR SHAREHOLDER IN THE
COMPANY AND THEREFORE CONTINUE TO HAVE A VOICE IN HOW THE COMPANY
IS RUN. AND JOINING ME IN STUDIO IS TOM GOLISANO. TOM, THANK
YOU FOR COMING.
>>
NICE TO BE HERE, GARY.
>>
Gary Walker: LET'S -- I GUESS THE QUESTION I HEAR FOR THE MOST
PART, AND I LIKE TO ASK QUESTIONS PEOPLE ASK ME. WHY, WHY, WHY,
WHY IS TOM GOLISANO RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR AGAIN?
>> WELL, I THINK IT'S PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD. I'VE LIVED HERE
ALL MY LIFE. I HAVE WATCHED OUR STATE GO THROUGH A PERIOD OF
DECLINE. WHEN GEORGE PATAKI WAS ELECTED, THERE WAS A LOT OF
HOPE THAT ECONOMICALLY HE WOULD TURN IT AROUND, PARTICULARLY
UPSTATE. AND FOR THE FIRST COUPLE OF YEARS, IT DIDN'T LOOK TOO
BAD, QUITE FRANKLY, BUT WHAT'S HAPPENED THE LAST SIX YEARS,
GARY, IS PRETTY SCARY. FOR EXAMPLE, OUR NEW YORK STATE BUDGET
UNDER GOVERNOR PATAKI'S ADMINISTRATION HAS GONE FROM $62 BILLION
TO $89 BILLION. THAT'S A 46% INCREASE IN JUST SEVEN YEARS, AND
ON A PER PERSON BASIS, IT'S $1,500 OF NEW STATE SPENDING FOR
EVERY MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD IN OUR STATE. WE HAVE NOT HAD A CONSERVATIVE
ENVIRONMENT. WE'RE STILL THE HIGHEST TAXED PER CAPITA POPULATION
IN THE COUNTRY, IF YOU COMBINE STATE AND LOCAL TAXES, AND NOT
ONLY THAT, BUT THE AMOUNT OF DEBT THAT'S BEEN PILED ON TOP OF
THE TAXPAYER, TOO. SO WE HAVE GONE BACKWARDS. AND I DON'T THINK
THERE'S ANYBODY IN UPSTATE NEW YORK PARTICULARLY THAT WOULD
SAY, "HEY, THINGS ARE GREAT; THE ECONOMY IS BOOMING HERE. WE'RE
REALLY DOING A GREAT JOB." SO MANY PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT
THEIR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN LEAVING; SO MANY PEOPLE ARE
CONCERNED ABOUT THE SO-CALLED BRAIN DRAIN, WITH A LOT OF OUR
22- TO 34-YEAR-OLDS LEAVING OUR COMMUNITY. IT'S VERY SERIOUS.
AND I THINK IT CAN BE TURNED AROUND. I REALLY THINK IT CAN BE
TURNED AROUND.
>>
Gary Walker: LET ME ASK YOU, LET'S GET SOME OF THESE -- HOW
DO I PUT THEM? -- INSIDE POLITICAL REPORTER QUESTIONS OR CONVENTIONAL
WISDOM QUESTIONS, THE STUFF THAT'S IN THE PAPERS EVERY DAY,
PARTICULARLY THE NEW YORK MEDIA AND THE ALBANY MEDIA, AND LET
ME PUT THEM OUT THERE AND KNOCK THEM OFF AND GET THEM ALL SAID
AND DONE WITH. FOR INSTANCE, I THINK THE "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS"
SAID YOU ARE RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR BECAUSE YOU HAVE A GIANT EGO
AND YOU'RE BASICALLY A BORED BILLIONAIRE.
>>
WELL, THAT'S WHAT THE COMPETITION IS SAYING. THE TWO-PARTY SYSTEM
DOESN'T LIKE OUTSIDE COMPETITION COMING INTO IT, AND SO PEOPLE
ARE USING THIS AS AN ALIBI OR A REASON FOR ME RUNNING. AND,
OBVIOUSLY, IT'S THE FURTHEST THING FROM MY MIND. PAYCHEX HAS
PROVIDED ME A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF OPPORTUNITY TO BE RECOGNIZED
IN THE COMMUNITY, AND THAT'S GREAT. BUT THE REAL PROBLEM IS
THE CONDITION OF OUR STATE. AND THEY'LL USE STRATEGIES LIKE
THAT, YOU KNOW, TO TAKE PEOPLE'S EYE OFF THE BALL.
>>
Gary Walker: ONE WE'RE SEEING A LOT LATELY IS THAT YOU'RE RUNNING
JUST TO SINK THE GOVERNOR BECAUSE YOU HAVE A BOND WITH DEMOCRATS
OR PARTICULARLY WITH Mr. CUOMO...
>> WELL, IF YOU REMEMBER THE 1994 CAMPAIGN WHEN I DEBATED MARIO
CUOMO ON TV THREE CONSECUTIVE TIMES, ANYBODY WHO SAYS I HAVE
A BOND WITH THE DEMOCRATS REALLY NEED TO HAVE THEIR HEAD EXAMINED
QUITE FRANKLY BECAUSE PHILOSOPHICALLY, WE'RE MILES APART. I
AM RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR BECAUSE I THINK I'D MAKE THE BETTER
GOVERNOR.
>>
Gary Walker: HAVE YOU HEARD -- I HAVE HEARD A LOT OF THIS AND
PEOPLE ARE NOT LIKE OUT IN THE PAPERS WITH IT A LOT, BUT COMMUNITY
LEADERS AND LOCAL ELECTED POLITICIANS HAVE VOICED KIND OF A
SIMILAR VEIN, THAT THEY WOULD RATHER YOU NOT RUN FOR GOVERNOR
AND JUST STAY HERE AND KEEP DOING ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE
DOING AND HELP GROW THIS LOCAL ECONOMY. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU
KNOW, INSTEAD OF PUTTING YOUR EFFORTS AND YOUR RESOURCES THERE,
YOU KNOW, CONCENTRATE LOCALLY.
>>
WELL, MAYBE, GARY, WE CAN HAVE THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS. PAYCHEX
IS A VERY STRONG COMPANY; IT'S GOT A GREAT FUTURE. IF I GET
ELECTED GOVERNOR, PAYCHEX IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO DO WELL. IT'S
GOING TO BE VERY SUPPORTIVE OF THIS COMMUNITY. THE KEY PEOPLE
IN THE ORGANIZATION WILL SUPPORT THE COMMUNITY JUST AS I HAVE.
SO THAT WILL CONTINUE WHETHER OR NOT I'M RUNNING PAYCHEX OR
NOT. IF I HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BECOME GOVERNOR AND REALLY
DO SOMETHING SIGNIFICANT FOR THIS STATE, MAYBE WE CAN HAVE THE
BEST OF BOTH WORLDS.
>>
Gary Walker: I HAVE TO ASK YOU THIS. YOU WERE -- THE IRONY ABOUNDS
OBVIOUSLY OF YOU HAVING TO GO INTO A PRIMARY IN SEPTEMBER FOR
A PARTY THAT YOU HELPED CREATE AS A THIRD VOICE TO GET AWAY
FROM THE TWO MAJOR PARTIES. NOW THE PARTY WANTS TO ENDORSE --
THE MAJORITY OF THEM AT LEAST, AT THIS RATE, WANTS TO ENDORSE
A REPUBLICAN INCUMBENT GOVERNOR. HOW DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL?
>>
WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WHAT THE POLITICAL PROCESS SHOULD BE ABOUT
IS COMPETITION. SO THE FACT THAT THERE'S COMPETITION FOR THE
GUBERNATORIAL SLOT ON THE INDEPENDENCE PARTY LINE SHOULD NOT
SURPRISE OR DISMAY ANYBODY. IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T DISMAY ME.
WHAT DOES DISMAY ME IS THE FACT THAT GOVERNOR PATAKI HAS GOT
A LOT OF DELEGATE SUPPORT BY USING THE STATE PAYROLL, BY USING
THE STATE GRANTS, BY AWARDING CONTRACTS, AND -- WELL, TO GIVE
YOU AN EXCELLENT EXAMPLE, MANORA FALLANI HAS DONE A LOT TO BECOME
A PART OF THE INDEPENDENCE PARTY, BE IT GOOD OR BAD. THE FACT
OF THE MATTER IS HER NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATION RECEIVED A $10
MILLION TAX-EXEMPT BOND FROM THE GOVERNOR. OKAY? IT'S RUMORED
THAT THE INDEPENDENCE PARTY CHAIRMAN HAS RECEIVED A CHAIRMANSHIP
OF THE O.T.B. IN SUFFOLK COUNTY, AND THAT'S A SIX-FIGURE JOB.
SO WHEN YOU'RE A PERSON LIKE MYSELF TRYING TO FIGHT THE STATE
PAYROLL AND STATE CONTRACTS AND STATE PATRONAGE, IT MAKES IT
VERY, VERY DISCOURAGING. I'M NOT CONCERNED ABOUT IT IN THE LONG
RUN BECAUSE I REMEMBER -- OR WE SHOULD REMEMBER THE FACT THAT
THE PEOPLE THAT VOTED FOR ME INITIALLY ARE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE
AGAINST THE TWO-PARTY SYSTEM, ARE AGAINST WHAT'S HAPPENED IN
ALBANY FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS.
>>
Gary Walker: HOW DO YOU REACT TO THE NEWS THAT THE GOVERNOR
MAY BE USING SOME OF HIS OWN CAMPAIGN FUNDS TO HIRE PEOPLE TO
HELP SIGN UP PEOPLE FOR THE INDEPENDENCE PARTY?
>>
(Chuckling) ISN'T THAT IRONIC? WHAT'S TRADITIONALLY HAPPENED
IN NEW YORK STATE IS THAT A THIRD, FOURTH OR FIFTH PARTY WILL
COME ALONG AND THE TWO MAJOR PARTIES WILL DO EVERYTHING THEY
CAN TO COOPT OR TAKE OVER THOSE PARTIES, EVEN TO THE POINT OF
PUTTING REPUBLICANS -- HAVE THEM CHANGE TO REGISTERED INDEPENDENCE
JUST SO THEY CAN HAVE INFLUENCE IN THE INDEPENDENCE PARTY. IT'S
HAPPENED WITH THE LIBERAL PARTY; IT'S HAPPENED WITH THE CONSERVATIVE
PARTY, AND NOW IT'S HAPPENING WITH THE INDEPENDENCE PARTY.
>>
Gary Walker: LET'S TALK ABOUT THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY A LITTLE
BIT. YOU'RE TRYING TO DO A SIGN-ON, A PETITION TO GET INTO --
BASICALLY AGAIN TO PRIMARY THE GOVERNOR FOR THE CONSERVATIVE
PARTY LINE. TOM COOK, OUR LOCAL CONSERVATIVE PARTY CHAIRMAN,
SAYS YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CONSERVATIVE CREDENTIALS, ARE NOT A
REAL CONSERVATIVE. LET ME ASK YOU: ARE YOU A REAL CONSERVATIVE?
AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO YOU?
>>
I THINK FISCALLY I'M ABOUT AS CONSERVATIVE AS YOU CAN BE, AND
IF I CAN POINT TO ANYTHING, I THINK POINTING TO THE TRACK RECORD
OF PAYCHEX CERTAINLY WOULD DEMONSTRATE THAT. AND NOT ONLY PAYCHEX,
BUT YOU KNOW I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN OTHER ENTREPRENEURIAL ORGANIZATIONS.
I THINK FROM A FISCAL PERSPECTIVE, I'M ABOUT AS CONSERVATIVE
AS I CAN BE. THE WAY OUR BUDGET PROCESS WORKS IN NEW YORK STATE
IS LUDICROUS. IT'S LATE; IT'S NOT UNDER CONTROL. THIS YEAR THEY'RE
USING A LOT OF ONETIME REVENUE SOURCES. THERE'S NO BUILT-IN
SURPLUSES. IT'S BEEN AT THREE AND FOUR TIMES THE RATE OF INFLATION
FOR THE LAST SEVEN YEARS. I DON'T KNOW HOW ANYBODY COULD CALL
GEORGE PATAKI A CONSERVATIVE, ESPECIALLY THE LAST FOUR OR FIVE
YEARS. SO IF I WAS ELECTED GOVERNOR, THE FIRST THING I WOULD
DO IS BRING THAT BUDGET PROCESS UNDER CONTROL. THE FACT OF THE
MATTER IS THE BEST THING WE CAN DO FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
IN OUR STATE IS KEEP OUR TAXES DOWN. WHENEVER YOU TAKE MONEY
AWAY FROM HOUSEHOLDS AND GIVE IT TO GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS TO
SPEND, USUALLY YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET YOUR VALUE FOR IT AND
YOU'RE TAKING AWAY THE ABILITY FOR PEOPLE TO ENHANCE THEIR LIFESTYLE.
>>
Gary Walker: SO BASICALLY YOUR MESSAGE TO CONSERVATIVE VOTERS
IS, "I AM A FISCAL CONSERVATIVE AND THAT'S A MAJOR, PRESSING
AGENDA WE NEED TO LOOK AT AND LET'S NOT TALK ABOUT SOCIAL CONSERVATIVE
ISSUES"?
>>
ABSOLUTELY.
>> Gary Walker: I WANT TO ASK A COUPLE MORE POLITICAL QUESTIONS
BEFORE WE GET INTO SOME OTHER THINGS. ONE OF THEM IS THAT A
MINOR PARTY WINNING STATEWIDE IS REALLY VERY RARE IN NEW YORK
STATE. I THINK THE LAST MINOR PARTY CANDIDATE TO DO THAT WAS
JAMES BUCKLEY. I THINK IT WAS 1970, AND THAT WAS BECAUSE OF
A WEIRD CONFLUENCE OF RICHARD OTTINGER RUNNING AND CHARLES GOODALE
AND SOMEHOW THEY CANCELED EACH OTHER OUT AND THE THIRD PARTY
SNUCK IN. I HAVE TO ASK YOU: ARE YOU LOOKING AT THAT RACE? IS
THAT YOUR STRATEGY? I MEAN, GIVE THE HISTORY OF THE STATE, WHAT'S
YOUR GAME PLAN TO WIN?
>>
WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WHEN YOU HAVE A THREE-WAY RACE, YOU KNOW
YOU ONLY NEED 34, 35 OR 36% TO WIN. SO THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT.
THE MORE BALANCED THE RACE IS RELATIVE TO DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS
AND MYSELF, THE BETTER OPPORTUNITY WE HAVE. BUT WE DON'T HAVE
TO LOOK TOO FAR GEOGRAPHICALLY, GARY. LOWELL WEICKER WON AS
AN INDEPENDENT IN CONNECTICUT. ANGUS KING WAS GOVERNOR AS AN
INDEPENDENT IN MAINE, AND JESSE VENTURA IN MINNESOTA. SO THERE'S
A LOT OF PRECEDENT OUT THERE. QUITE FRANKLY, IT'S ALMOST LIKE
A SNOWBALL. ONCE WE GET THAT SNOWBALL GOING, I THINK THE DESIRE
TO HAVE SOMETHING DIFFERENT POLITICALLY IN THIS STATE IS GOING
TO GAIN A LOT OF MOMENTUM. WHAT IT MAY TAKE IN THE POLLING NUMBERS,
WHO KNOWS. BUT AS SOON AS PEOPLE START TO HAVE THE FEELING THAT
IT'S POSSIBLE FOR US TO WIN, I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE A BIG
MOMENTUM START TO BUILD.
>>
Gary Walker: I HAVE COVERED POLITICS FOR A LONG TIME, INCLUDING
IN ALBANY FOR MANY YEARS AS WELL. JACK COOKE, WHO EVERYONE KNOWS
IS AN INSIDE REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, HE DID HAVE A POINT. HE
SAID THAT YOU MAY HAVE A LOT OF MONEY BUT ORGANIZATION, AND
GRASSROOTS ORGANIZATIONS IN DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES, COULD WELL
BE AN ISSUE FOR YOU. SO I'M WONDERING, DO YOU HAVE ENOUGH INFRASTRUCTURE
TO WIN A THIRD-PARTY RACE OR DO YOU THINK PAID MEDIA IS GOING
TO BE ENOUGH TO CARRY THAT?
>>
NO, PAID MEDIA IS NOT ENOUGH TO CARRY IT, EVEN THOUGH THE AMOUNT
OF PAID MEDIA THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THIS TIME IS GOING TO
BE A MULTIPLE OF WHAT WE HAD IN PRIOR YEARS. YOU DO NEED AN
ORGANIZATION AND WE ARE RIGHT IN THE PROCESS OF PUTTING THAT
ORGANIZATION TOGETHER WITH OFFICES AROUND THE STATE, WITH POLITICAL
OPERATIVES STATIONED IN THOSE OFFICES, A LOT OF RESEARCH PEOPLE
ON ISSUES... A LOT OF GRASSROOTS EFFORT THAT WE DIDN'T HAVE
IN '94 AND '98.
>>
Gary Walker: YOU MENTIONED MONEY SO WHY NOT --
>>
YOU MENTIONED IT A FEW TIMES! (Laughing)
>> Gary Walker: YOU SPENT $8 MILLION ON YOUR LAST RACE AND --
I THINK IT WAS MORE THAN THAT.
>>
IT WAS 13.
>>
Gary Walker: ALMOST DOUBLED THAT; THAT'S RIGHT. MY APOLOGIES.
BUT WE HAVE HEARD SOME WILD NUMBERS, SAYING YOU'RE GOING TO
BE SPENDING $75 MILLION, ET CETERA, ET CETERA. WHAT ARE YOU
GOING TO SPEND?
>> GARY, IT'S NOT BEEN DETERMINED, BUT I DON'T WANT TO BE SITTING
THERE THE DAY AFTER ELECTION DAY AND SAY WE LOST THIS RACE BECAUSE
WE DIDN'T SPEND ENOUGH RESOURCES. THE BUDGET IS THERE. WE'RE
GOING TO DECIDE HOW TO SPEND IT AS EFFECTIVELY AND AS EFFICIENTLY
AS WE CAN. I'M DISMAYED, LIKE MANY PEOPLE ARE, THAT MYSELF AND
TWO OTHER CANDIDATES NEED TO BE SPENDING THE KINDS OF MONEY
WE'RE SPENDING, BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT THE REPUBLICAN/DEMOCRATIC
LEADERSHIP HAS CREATED THIS ENVIRONMENT. THE IMPACT THAT SPECIAL
INTERESTS AND PAC'S HAVE ON THE POLITICAL PROCESS... IF I HAD
MY WAY, I WOULD DEBATE GEORGE PATAKI, CARL McCALL, AND ANDREW
CUOMO FOR FIVE CONSECUTIVE NIGHTS FOR THREE WEEKS ON PUBLIC
TELEVISION AND NONE OF US WOULD SPEND ANY MONEY. WE WOULD HAVE
A MUCH BETTER GOVERNMENT IF WE DID THAT.
>> Gary Walker: I'LL SUGGEST THAT, SEE IF WE CAN PULL THAT OFF.
>>
WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET GEORGE PATAKI TO DEBATE.
>>
Gary Walker: THIS IS TRUE. LET ME ASK YOU, THOUGH, IS THAT NUMBER
OUT OF -- WOULD IT BE JUST OUT OF SIGHT OR IS IT A POSSIBILITY?
>> IT'S VERY MUCH A POSSIBILITY.
>>
Gary Walker: THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY. LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME ISSUES.
>>
LOOK HOW IMPORTANT THE STAKES ARE. I MEAN WE HAVE WATCHED THIS
STATE JUST UNDER MARIO CUOMO, 39 FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES LEFT
NEW YORK STATE, THEIR HEADQUARTERS. AND NOBODY CAN SAY OVER
THE LAST SEVEN OR EIGHT YEARS, PARTICULARLY UPSTATE, ANYTHING
HAS GOTTEN ANY BETTER. SO IT SOUNDS LIKE A LOT OF MONEY TO US
INDIVIDUALLY, BUT FOR THE OVERALL BENEFIT OF THE STATE, IT'S
REALLY SMALL.
>>
Gary Walker: ARE YOU GOING TO FUND-RAISE TO HELP?
>>
NO, I HAVE DECIDED NOT TO DO FUND-RAISING. I'M GOING TO FINANCE
THIS ENTIRELY ON MY OWN.
>>
Gary Walker: LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME ISSUES, Mr. GOLISANO. WHAT'S
THE GOVERNOR DOING OR NOT DOING THAT'S DRIVING YOU?
>>
WELL, I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENED RECENTLY -- AND IT'S MORE WHAT
THE GOVERNOR IS DOING -- HE WANTS TO GET REELECTED. WHAT'S GONE
ON IN THE LAST 12 TO 24 MONTHS IS A TOTAL SHIFT IN HIS FISCAL
POSITION FROM THE RIGHT WAY OVER TO THE LEFT. AND LET ME GIVE
YOU SOME EXAMPLES. I ALREADY MENTIONED THE GROWTH OF THE BUDGET.
THAT'S REAL OBVIOUS. WE SORT OF KID THAT THE GOVERNOR HAS NEW
BEST FRIENDS. ONE IS DENNIS RIVERA FROM THE 1199 HEALTH CARE
WORKERS. THEY PRESENTED A PACKAGE TO THE HEALTH CARE WORKERS.
I THINK IT'S ALMOST $3 BILLION. IT CAME OUT OF THE MIDDLE OF
THE NIGHT. ONLY THE THREE PARTIES -- THE TWO SPEAKERS AND THE
GOVERNOR WERE INVOLVED IN IT. THE HEALTH CARE WORKERS ARE A
VERY LARGE PAC. DENNIS RIVERA IS A HIGHLY ORGANIZED UNION LEADER.
AND I THINK IT'S GOING TO HAVE A DRAMATIC NEGATIVE IMPACT ON
HEALTH CARE OVER THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS IN NEW YORK STATE. WHEN
YOU START ALIGNING ANNIVERSARY DATES AND UNION CONTRACT RENEWABLE
DATES, YOU CAN SEE IT ALMOST COMING, AND WHEN YOU SEE PRESSURE
ON HOSPITALS TO UNIONIZE BASED ON THEIR CERTIFICATES OF NEED,
COMPLIANCE AND ALL THAT TYPE OF THING... I THINK THERE'S GOING
TO BE A SIGNIFICANT NEGATIVE IMPACT. SO -- AND A THING LIKE
THAT, A THING ABOUT NOT DOING MUCH ABOUT OUR -- WELL, THAT'S
FISCAL -- ABOUT OUR DEBT. THE THINGS THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT
TODAY -- WORKERS' COMPENSATION AND MINIMUM WAGE.
>>
Gary Walker: MINIMUM WAGE INCREASE, WHAT ABOUT THOSE?
>>
MY PERSONAL OPINION IS THAT THE MINIMUM WAGE CONCEPT IS A MYTH.
EMPLOYERS SHOULD HAVE THE ABILITY TO PAY WHATEVER IT TAKES TO
GET THE JOB DONE. AND WHEN YOU START RAISING THE MINIMUM WAGE
ABOVE THE FEDERAL LEVEL, WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO EVERYBODY OUTSIDE
OF NEW YORK STATE ABOUT THE ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY IN NEW YORK?
WHEN THE LEGISLATURE IN NEW YORK PUSHES UP THE MINIMUM WAGE,
IT'S GOING TO COST US MORE TO OPERATE HERE. THE OTHER AREA THAT
I THINK THE GOVERNOR HAS ABSOLUTELY NOT GOTTEN INVOLVED IN THAT'S
HURT OUR COMMUNITY TREMENDOUSLY IS URBAN EDUCATION. ALL OF OUR
URBAN EDUCATIONAL CENTERS -- NOT JUST ROCHESTER BUT BUFFALO,
SYRACUSE, ALBANY, YONKERS -- THEY'RE ALL SUFFERING FROM THE
SAME THING: AND THAT IS THEY'RE SPENDING A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT
OF MONEY AND GETTING A VERY TERRIBLE RESULT. AND THE GOVERNOR'S
ANSWER, BASED ON THE $200 MILLION THAT HE THREW AT THE TEACHERS'
UNION, IS TO THROW MORE MONEY AT IT. IT'S NOT THE ANSWER.
>>
Gary Walker: YOU WOULDN'T GIVE MAYORS AUTHORITY OVER SCHOOL
DISTRICTS?
>>
NO, I WOULDN'T. AND THE REASON BASICALLY FOR THAT IS MAYORS
HAVE A SHORT FOCUS TIME OF FOUR YEARS. I THINK TO DO A GOOD
JOB IN EDUCATION, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A LONGER-TERM VIEW OF THAT.
PLUS I WOULD HATE TO SEE EDUCATION TURN INTO A PATRONAGE SITUATION.
THAT SCARES ME.
>>
Gary Walker: LET'S TALK A LITTLE ABOUT THE COMPANY QUICKLY.
I HAVE ALWAYS WANTED TO ASK YOU THIS. TOUGH QUESTION: DO YOU
THINK YOU'RE -- ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT SENDING THE WRONG MESSAGE
TO YOUR EMPLOYEES, TO YOUR SHAREHOLDERS, STOCKHOLDERS, THAT
FOR THREE TIMES IN THE LAST DECADE YOU HAVE BASICALLY COME OUT
AND SAID, "I WOULD RATHER BE DOING SOMETHING ELSE THAN RUNNING
PAYCHEX"? DO YOU THINK THAT MIGHT BE SENDING A NEGATIVE MESSAGE
ABOUT THE COMPANY? YOU COULDN'T TELL BY PERFORMANCE, BUT ARE
YOU WORRIED ABOUT THAT AT ALL?
>> I'M NOT, GARY, AND I'LL TELL YOU WHY. FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE
GONE THROUGH IT TWICE AND I HAVE WATCHED OUR EMPLOYEE REACTION;
I'VE WATCHED THE SHAREHOLDER REACTION. I MADE A PRESENTATION
AT AN INVESTMENT CONFERENCE FOR BEAR STERNS ABOUT TWO WEEKS
AGO. WHEN I WAS FINISHED WITH THE PRESENTATION, FOUR OF THE
INSTITUTIONAL INVESTORS -- THREE OF THEM WERE SHAREHOLDERS --
CAME UP TO ME AFTER THE PRESENTATION AND SAID, "TOM, HOW CAN
WE HELP YOU WITH YOUR CAMPAIGN?" NOW, MAYBE WHEN THE POLLS START
SHOWING THAT I'M WINNING -- (Laughing) -- THEIR ATTITUDE MAY
CHANGE. BUT RIGHT NOW, EVERYBODY HAS BEEN VERY, VERY SUPPORTIVE.
I THINK THEY KNOW THIS IS A VERY PASSIONATE VENTURE FOR ME AND
IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO THE STATE AND TO MYSELF AND TO THE POPULATION,
SO THEY KIND OF SUPPORT IT.
>>
Gary Walker: WE HAVE A COUPLE OF MINUTES LEFT. I WANT TO FINISH
WITH THIS: YOU HAVE MADE SOME INCREDIBLE MAJOR CASH DONATIONS
IN THIS COMMUNITY, $40 MILLION IN THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS.
IT SEEMS TO ME IT'S KIND OF HARKENING BACK TO A LONG TRADITION
WE USED TO HAVE HERE IN ROCHESTER, THIS ACTIVIST C.E.O., PHILANTHROPIST
C.E.O... DO YOU ENVISION YOURSELF LIKE THIS GENERATION'S, THIS
MILLENNIUM'S GEORGE EASTMAN?
>>
NO, I DON'T ENVISION MYSELF AT ALL. I'M FLATTERED THAT YOU WOULD
EVEN SUGGEST SOMETHING LIKE THAT. BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER
IS THAT PAYCHEX HAS BEEN VERY GOOD TO ME; THE COMMUNITY HAS
BEEN VERY GOOD TO PAYCHEX. I'VE BEEN ABLE TO AMASS A SIGNIFICANT
AMOUNT OF RESOURCES, AND WHY NOT GIVE IT BACK TO THE COMMUNITY?
I MEAN, IT'S THE THING TO DO. ORGANIZATIONS LIKE R.I.T. AND
STRONG CHILDREN'S CENTER AND ROBERTS WESLEYAN, St. JOHN'S...
THEY'RE ALL VERY, VERY IMPORTANT INSTITUTIONS IN OUR COMMUNITY.
I HAVE THE LUXURY AND ABILITY TO SUPPORT THEM; I'M GOING TO.
>>
Gary Walker: DO YOU SEE YOURSELF AS KIND OF A ROLE MODEL THEN
FOR WHAT A LOCAL C.E.O. SHOULD BE?
>>
WELL, I DON'T WAKE UP IN THE MORNING THINKING ABOUT THAT, BUT
I WOULD BE HAPPIEST, I GUESS, IF OTHER C.E.O.s WERE AS INTERESTED
AND INVOLVED IN THE COMMUNITY AS I WANT TO BE. SO FROM THAT
PERSPECTIVE, YES.
>>
Gary Walker: OKAY. I GUESS THE LAST THING I WOULD SAY TO YOU
IS THAT WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE TO SAY AT THIS POINT IN YOUR LIFE?
YOU JUST HIT 60; YOU'RE RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR --
>>
DON'T TELL EVERYBODY THAT!
>> Gary Walker: YOU HAD A BIG PARTY FOR YOURSELF! (Laughing)
>>
LIFE IS FULL OF ADVENTURES, AND RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR IS A VERY,
VERY IMPORTANT ADVENTURE FOR ME. IT'S IMPORTANT TO THE STATE
AND I'M REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO IT. IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO
EVERYBODY.
>>
Gary Walker: TOM GOLISANO, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THAT IS ALL
THE TIME WE HAVE FOR THE DISCUSSION FOR THIS SEGMENT. FOR MORE
INFORMATION ON Mr. GOLISANO AND THE RACE FOR GOVERNOR, LOG ON
TO OUR WEB SITE, wxxi.org/ntk. TAKE PART IN OUR WEEKLY INTERNET
POLL. AND FOR DAILY COVERAGE OF THE STATE POLITICS AND ISSUES
IN THE GUBERNATORIAL ELECTION, NYcitizens.org. NOW, ONE MORE
NOTE: SINCE Mr. GOLISANO IS ON THE PRIMARY BALLOT FOR THE INDEPENDENCE
PARTY, AS IS GOVERNOR PATAKI, WXXI WILL, OF COURSE, OFFER EQUAL
TIME TO THE GOVERNOR TO APPEAR ON "NEED TO KNOW."
NOW
IT'S TIME FOR THIS WEEK'S
EDITION OF "THE BUSINESS
SECTION" WITH THE "THE
DEMOCRAT AND CHRONICLE."
ELLEN,
THANKS FOR JOINING US AGAIN.
>>
Ellen Rosen: THANK YOU, GARY.
>>
Gary Walker: I JUST HAD A RATHER INTERESTING TALK WITH Mr. GOLISANO
AND I WONDER IF YOU CAN TELL ME ANYTHING ABOUT HIS COMPANY'S
PERFORMANCE OF LATE?
>> Ellen Rosen: WELL, PAYCHEX IS A VERY CONSISTENT PERFORMER.
IT'S A VERY SOLID COMPANY, BUT IT'S BEEN HIT BY THE ECONOMY.
PAYCHEX DEALS LARGELY WITH SMALL AND MEDIUM-SIZED BUSINESSES
AND THOSE ARE EXACTLY THE COMPANIES THAT HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO
HIRE IN THIS ECONOMY. WHEN THEIR PAYROLLS ARE DOWN, THE AMOUNT
OF WORK THAT PAYCHEX IS DOING FOR THEM IS DOWN, PLUS INTEREST
RATES HAVE BEEN DOWN WHICH HURTS PAYCHEX BECAUSE THEY PLAY ON
THE FLOAT BETWEEN WHEN THEY HAVE THE MONEY FOR PAYROLL AND WHEN
THE PAYROLL GOES OUT. SO THEY HAVE ACTUALLY -- THEY COME OUT
WITH THEIR FOURTH-QUARTER AND YEAR-END EARNINGS ON TUESDAY BEFORE
THE MARKET OPENS AND THEY ACTUALLY EARLIER THIS YEAR HAD CUT
THEIR EARNINGS' EXPECTATIONS ALMOST IN HALF. SOMETHING LIKE
9 TO 10 CENTS A SHARE IS WHAT THEY WERE EXPECTING COMPARED TO
EARLIER HAD BEEN AS HIGH AS 18 OR MORE. AND THEIR STOCK RIGHT
NOW IS A LOT CLOSER TO ITS 52-WEEK LOW THAN IT IS TO THE 52-WEEK
HIGH. BUT THEY'RE VERY CONSISTENT. WALL STREET LIKES CONSISTENCY.
THEY LIKE YOU TO SAY WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DELIVER; THEY LIKE
YOU TO DELIVER EVEN IF YOU LOWER YOUR EXPECTATIONS. IT'S WARNINGS
AND SURPRISES THEY DON'T LIKE. AND PAYCHEX IS EXTREMELY CONSISTENT.
>> Gary Walker: UNEMPLOYMENT NUMBERS DUE OUT SOON. ARE THESE
GOING TO BE LOCAL NUMBERS?
>> Ellen Rosen: THEY'RE DUE OUT TODAY. IT WILL BE LOCAL NUMBERS.
WE'LL LOOK AT THE ENTIRE REGIONAL AREA, THE SIX-COUNTY AREA.
WE'RE REALLY ANXIOUS TO SEE HOW THIS IS GOING COMING INTO THIS
PERIOD OF SEASONAL HIRING AND WHAT'S GOING ON. THESE WILL BE
THE NUMBERS FOR MAY AND WE'LL REALLY SEE HOW -- WE HAD BEEN
TRACKING. NATIONALLY IT'S BEEN GOING DOWN; WE WEREN'T REALLY
SEEING THAT YET, SO WE'RE REALLY INTERESTED TO SEE WHERE THAT
GOES.
>>
Gary Walker: WELL, WE WERE THINKING THAT IT MAY BE TRENDING
DOWN IN MONROE COUNTY, BUT WE'LL HAVE TO WAIT FOR THOSE NUMBERS
TO FIND THAT.
>>
Ellen Rosen: RIGHT. THEY'LL BE OUT.
>>
Gary Walker: I DO WANT TO ASK YOU THIS, THOUGH. WE HAVE A LOT
OF INDICATORS ABOUT HOW HEALTHY IS THE LOCAL ECONOMY. NOW, UNEMPLOYMENT
RATES, UNEMPLOYMENT FIGURES, ARE ONE OF THOSE INDICATORS. IS
THAT A SIGNIFICANT INDICATOR? IS THIS A BIG DEAL OR IS IT JUST
A MINOR INDICATOR REFLECTING THE HEALTH OF OUR LOCAL COMMUNITY?
>> Ellen Rosen: IT'S A SIGNIFICANT INDICATOR BECAUSE IT INDICATES
A COUPLE OF THINGS: FIRST OF ALL, THE HEALTH OF THE COMPANIES
THAT ARE EMPLOYING THESE PEOPLE. COMPANIES HAVE TO LAY PEOPLE
OFF WHEN THEY'RE NOT MEETING THEIR EXPECTATIONS. AND ALSO IF
YOU LOOK AT GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT, CONSUMER SPENDING IS THE
VAST MAJORITY OF THAT. IF PEOPLE DON'T HAVE JOBS, THEY CAN'T
SPEND SO THEY'RE NOT OUT IN THE RETAIL STORES; THEY'RE NOT BUYING
CARS; THEY'RE NOT IMPROVING THEIR HOMES. SO IT HAS A RIPPLE
EFFECT THROUGHOUT THE ECONOMY.
>>
Gary Walker: I GUESS TRADITIONALLY, NEXT MONTH WHEN ALL THE
HIGH SCHOOLS AND ALL THE COLLEGES LET OUT, THOSE NUMBERS GENERALLY
TEND TO RISE.
>>
Ellen Rosen: WELL, BUT THAT'S BEEN VERY DIFFICULT. THE PEOPLE
WE'VE TALKED TO, THE COLLEGE GRADUATES -- WE HAD A STORY A FEW
WEEKS AGO THAT THEY ARE REALLY HAVING TROUBLE FINDING NOT JUST
JOBS BUT EVEN UNPAID INTERNSHIPS THIS SUMMER. THINGS ARE REALLY
TIGHT. THE JOBS THAT HAVE TRADITIONALLY BEEN OPEN TO THEM ARE
BEING TAKEN BY PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT OF WORK.
>>
Gary Walker: NOW, THESE NUMBERS WON'T REFLECT THAT, BUT NEXT
MONTH'S NUMBERS WILL REFLECT --
>>
Ellen Rosen: THE COLLEGE KIDS HAVE REALLY BEEN OUT SINCE MAY,
SO THIS MAY START REFLECTING SOME OF THAT. THE HIGH SCHOOL KIDS
ARE JUST COMING OUT NOW. GRADUATIONS ARE THIS WEEKEND. BUT MOST
OF THOSE KIDS, IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE A JOB LINED UP MONTHS AGO,
IT'S GOING TO BE REALLY TOUGH TO FIND ONE NOW.
>>
Gary Walker: WELL, WE'LL LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING THOSE. I WAS
TALKING TO YOU EARLIER ABOUT A STORY YOU ARE WORKING ON, WHICH
I FIND REALLY INTERESTING, PEOPLE CHANGING CAREERS. I'M THINKING,
"WELL, HERE'S A C.E.O. WHO'S LOOKING FOR A CAREER CHANGE TO
THE GOVERNOR." SO I GUESS THAT CAN HAPPEN AT A LOT OF DIFFERENT
LEVELS.
>>
Ellen Rosen: WE FOUND A VARIETY OF PEOPLE FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS
-- PERSONAL, PROFESSIONAL, ECONOMIC REASONS, PEOPLE THAT GET
LAID OFF, PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST LOOKING FOR A DIFFERENCE IN THEIR
LIFE. AND THEY HAVE MADE SOME PRETTY RADICAL CHANGES. IT'S NOT
JUST GOING FROM ONE JOB TO ANOTHER BUT COMPLETELY CHANGING UP
THE CAREER AND THEY'RE OFTEN GIVING UP A GREAT DEAL OF THEIR
INCOME TO TRY TO FIND A BETTER QUALITY OF LIFE. SO WE'RE LOOKING
AT THAT. ANOTHER THING WE HAVE THAT'S VERY INTERESTING IN SUNDAY'S
PAPER IS WE HAVE ANOTHER INSTALLMENT OF OUR "UNDERSTANDING OUR
ECONOMY" SERIES, AND WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT,
WHAT MAKES IT UP, HOW IT'S PUT TOGETHER, WHERE THE NUMBERS ARE
CALCULATED, AND WHAT IT'S BEEN DOING OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS
OR SO.
>>
Gary Walker: DOMESTIC PRODUCT WOULD MEAN FOR OUR AREA?
>>
Ellen Rosen: NO, THIS IS NATIONWIDE, WHICH IS A HUGE INDICATOR.
I MEAN, THE NUMBERS WERE OUT TODAY. THE TRADE DEFICIT HAS BALLOONED
AGAIN TO A RECORD HIGH. THE NUMBERS WERE OUT TODAY. SO WE'LL
BE LOOKING AT HOW MUCH -- THAT'S THE VALUE OF GOODS AND SERVICES
THAT THE COUNTRY PRODUCES AND WHERE THAT'S GOING. IT'S GONE
UP MARKEDLY. WE'RE GOING TO EXPLAIN TO YOU HOW THAT NUMBER IS
CALCULATED AND WHAT GOES INTO IT, WHAT ARE THE PIECES THAT GO
INTO IT.
>>
Gary Walker: BUT IS THERE ANY INDICATOR WE CAN LOOK AT LOCALLY?
IS THERE LIKE A LOCAL GROSS NATIONAL OR GROSS LOCAL PRODUCT?
>>
Ellen Rosen: YOU REALLY DON'T DO -- PROBABLY THE CLOSEST THING
TO THAT, THERE'S REALLY NO LOCAL G.D.P. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF
THINGS YOU CAN PUT TOGETHER, AND WE DO RUN THOSE SUNDAY IN THE
PAPER, TOO. THERE'S THE LOCAL PURCHASING MANAGERS GIVE OUT THEIR
NUMBERS FOR WHERE THEY THINK THE ECONOMY IS GOING, HOW SUPPLIES
ARE GOING, AND OBVIOUSLY THERE'S LOCAL UNEMPLOYMENT NUMBERS
AND THINGS LIKE THAT, LOCAL HOUSING STARTS, OTHER THINGS LIKE
THAT, CAR SALES... SO YOU CAN SORT OF PIECE IT TOGETHER LIKE
THAT BECAUSE THOSE ALL GO INTO THE G.D.P.
>>
Gary Walker: LET ME JUST TOUCH ON THE CAREER CHANGES AGAIN.
SO WHAT'S THE MARKET LIKE FOR BROADCASTERS OUT THERE FOR CHANGING
CAREERS? (Laughing)
>> Ellen Rosen: I DON'T KNOW. IT DEPENDS. I MEAN, WE HAVE GOT
A CASE OF A COUPLE OF EXECUTIVES WHO HAVE GONE ON TO DO THINGS
LIKE BECOME A CHOIR MASTER OR GO BE A MAPLE SYRUP FARMER. SO
IT DEPENDS ON HOW ADVENTUROUS YOU ARE IN TERMS OF CHANGING YOUR
CAREER.
>>
Gary Walker: WELL, THEY MUST HAVE SOME FINANCIAL SECURITY TO
BE ABLE TO DO THAT, THOUGH.
>>
Ellen Rosen: I GUESS FOR SOME PEOPLE, MONEY ISN'T EVERYTHING.
>>
Gary Walker: WE'LL LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING THAT. THAT'S GOING
TO BE THIS SUNDAY?
>>
Ellen Rosen: YES.
>> Gary Walker: ELLEN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. wxxi.org/ntk.
(Music)
>> Gary Walker: NOW, DON'T FORGET THAT YOU CAN READ MORE
ABOUT THIS YEAR'S ELECTIONS ON OUR WEB SITE. JUST LOG ONTO wxxi.org/ntk.
THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE FOR TONIGHT'S PROGRAM. WE'LL SEE
YOU NEXT WEEK.
(Music)