>>
JUST AHEAD ON "NEED TO KNOW" -- the urban-suburban
sbrersbrer.-
-- interdistrict transfer program.-
Nearly 40 years ago, educators called it a way to racially
integrate our schools.-
It's lasted 38 years without any changes in school district
participation.-
Now one suburban school district would like to join.-
The question is -- does the voluntary program still have
relevancy when the districts are more segregated than ever?-
We'll tackle that issue tonight and we'll bring you the THE
BUSINESS SECTION FOR THE "DEMOCRAT AND CHRONICLE."-
That's next on "NEED TO KNOW."-
-
>> MONROE COUNTY educational system is more segregated
than
before.-
More segregated than Brown V. Board of Education.-
[CAPTIONING MADE POSSIBLE BY THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION]
Captioned by the National-
Captioning Institute-
--www.ncicap.org-- -
>> Thank you for joining us.-
I'm MICHAEL CAPUTO.-
What constitutes segregation in our schools?-
Currently, more than 80% of students in the Rochester city
school district are African-American or Hispanic.-
In the suburban school districts, the vast majority of students
are white.-
In the 1960's, segregation -- or "racial isolation"
as it was
termed -- was deemed a concern.-
And that was when the city school districts' student population
was about 25% minority.-
Area educators back then did not look to busing as a solution.-
Rather, they relied on a voluntary transfer program between
city and suburban schools, the urban-suburban program.-
Minority pupils from the city district would be sent to
participating suburban schools, while white suburban students
would be sent to the city.-
Today, most of the roughly 400 to 500 children in the program
transfer from the city to one of the six participating suburban
districts.-
No other suburban district has joined since the 1960's.-
Now the Fairport Central School district is seriously exploring
joining the program.-
This despite court challenges to the constitutionality of the
program and criticisms that it really hasn't done anything to
solve the problem.-
"NEED TO KNOW's" MATT CUMMINGS now gives us a closer
look.-
-
>> You guys are going to be using the circuit boards and
the
power supplies.-
-
>> MONROE COUNTY's educational system is more segregated
than
ever, more segregated than Brown V. Board of Education.-
-
>> Fairport central superintendent Bill Cala paints a
stark
picture of the segregated nature of our county's schools.-
Yet, Cala says that race isn't really the major reason for the
imbalance.-
-
>> And the economics.-
People with any means whatsoever are leaving cities, and what's
left in the cities are poor minorities, meaning that the
schools have become more segregated than ever.-
It's what's referred to as economic suicide.-
-
>> Encouraging racial interaction to break down that
segregation is what Norman Gross says is at the core of the
urban-suburban transfer program.-
He is its founder and former project director.-
-
>> A black youngster doesn't get smarter because he sits
next
to a white youngster.-
You know, this is not what we contend.-
What we're saying is there's got to be interaction, a normal
interaction, in this country between the races.-
The only way you are going to get it is by starting in the
schools.-
-
>> The issue of educational segregation here is nothing
new.-
In the fall of 1963, after studying the racial imbalance in
their district, Rochester public school educators instituted
the first transurban exchange.-
It took place between the city's predominantly African-American
Madison high school and Marshall high school, which had one
nonwhite student enrolled.-
In 1964, a city suburban exchange was done, a summer school
swap between the city district and Brighton.-
A year later, the west IRONDEQUOIT school board voted to
exchange students with Rochester during the regular school
year.-
The urban-suburban transfer program was born.-
In the next few years, Brighton, Brockport, Penfield,
Pittsford, and Wheatland-Chili joined the school-year effort.-
The urban-suburban student transfer program's mission statement
says it seeks to reduce racial isolation in New York State
schools in order to enhance racial awareness and sensitivity
among students, parents, and teachers.-
After 38 years, some believe its success is debatable but that
those ideals still have relevance today.-
-
>> When you're exposed to many different races and cultures
here in Brighton, you know, everyone tries to ask questions
and
find out more about what types of experiences I've been
through.-
I found myself asking other people what types of, you know,
experiences and what type of lifestyle they live.-
-
>> Eva Bradley is a junior at Brighton High School.-
She understands the program promotes greater diversity.-
She has attended the Brighton district since the sixth grade
as
part of the.-
She gets something out of deal as well.-
-
>> I feel there's more of a competitive edge to the education
because Brighton is nothing but the best.-
Everything else, you know, is somewhat unacceptable.-
-
>> Since the 1960's, no suburban schools have joined the
original six.-
But now Bill Cala's Fairport district wants to get involved.-
-
>> Actually, we live in a very diverse world, and Fairport
is
not a sbers entity.-
-- diverse entity.-
If we're going to prepare our kids to be productive citizens
in
the world, it's not as they are with 93% white.-
We have to get the schools to do the job.-
-
>> But does it work?-
And what are the measures of access?-
Dr. Dennis Showers, chair of SUNY Geneseo's education
department, says these are questions worth asking.-
-
>> If the urban-suburban program wants to reach out to
more
districts, to more students, to make an argument for
county-wide school district, they really have to gather some
tough data and look at how efficiently are the resources being
used that they're using right now.-
One of the questions would be, if we weren't using those
resources to do the urban-suburban program, could there be
something else that we could be doing with those resources to
solve some other problems that the schools have?-
-
>> The program faced a challenge in 1999 when a white
Rochester
student wanted to attend west IRONDEQUOIT schools through the
urban-suburban program.-
She was denied, and the student's parents went to court to
reverse that decision.-
The courts ultimately upheld the ruling by the urban-suburban
schools, but one judge in the case stated in his opinion that
if the program's goal was to reduce segregation, it has
failed.-
Cala believes the exchange has value because it prepares
students for the real world.-
However, he is realistic about what it can accomplish.-
-
>> This program won't cure racial imbalance, it won't
cure
bigotry, and it won't make Fairport a diverse community.-
What it does, however, is offer an ingredient towards a goal.-
Looking at this as one element in a multifaceted approach to
dealing with diversity is how we look at it.-
-
>> Other suburban school districts mulled over the idea
of
getting involved with urban-suburban, but ultimately, Webster
and east Rochester did not decide to participate.-
Let's broaden the discussion now with our three experts.-
Bill Cala, superintendent of Fairport central schools, Theresa
Woodson, program director for the urban-suburban transfer
program, and Adam Urbanski, president of the Rochester Teachers
Association.-
Thank you all for being here.-
Mr. Cala, I want to star with you.-
What are the chances Fairport is going to have -- will join
this program?-
-
>> I think they're fairly strong.-
We've had a goal of including people in our district of a very
diverse audience for quite some time now, for the past several
years, and as I mentioned earlier, we look at this as another
opportunity towards that goal of reaching a better balance than
we have right now.-
-
>> Ms. Woodson, I wanted to ask you, I know there are
other
voluntary programs around the nation.-
But some I read about recently, one in Boston, has undergone
assault from time to time on shouldn't you change?-
When in Hartford, it did change into a school choice program
no
longer really taking into account racial diversity.-
What are the pressures on the program here in Rochester?-
-
>> I don't think at this point there are any pressures.-
I think the big things about those other two programs were
primarily that they were court-ordered, and I think what makes
urban-suburban special is that it is voluntary.-
Districts seek out to -- seek out participation in our program,
so I think that's what makes this different than the other two
programs.-
-
>> Mr. Urbanski, the number of children who participate
in this
program, about 400 to 500 children, 36,000 children attend
Rochester city schools along.-
Is this too small to make a dent in the program?-
-
>> Well, it's 1% too small.-
Of course.-
Let me take what might be viewed as a provocative view, but
one
that I hold sincerely.-
I think that unintentionally and unwittingly this program is
doing more harm than good.-
And the evidence of that is that it's been in existence for
a
decade, and it may have unintentionally robbed us of the
urgency to do something about racial segregation, economic
segregation, because it has served as an excuse, a sort of
facade, giving the impression that actually there is movement.-
There has not been movement.-
And if this program doesn't substantially increase in the
numbers of students that are participating, then it simply
serves as a safety valve not to address the real issue.-
Now, the people in the program are all well-intentioned and
they are very good people, and the students in the program are
benefiting, but 1% is -- the 99% who aren't is not the answer.-
It prevents us from getting at the real issue.-
-
>> Ms. Woodson, would you comment on that?-
-
>> Sure.-
I think that there needs to be consideration in terms of other
districts participating.-
We don't have control over the number of students that can
participate because it's based on space.-
So our hands are tied in terms of the numbers that can be
placed.-
In terms of it being a facade, again, I would reiterate what
Dr. Cala has said.-
It's not the cure-all to end-all, but I think it is in part
a
practical solution.-
-
>> Even if it's 1%, one student, wouldn't that qualify
it as a
success?-
-
>> No, it would not.-
It would only qualify it as a success for that 1%.-
Here's the problem.-
And we are very, very good at the education industry.-
You have a lousy school system in place, right, and parents
who
are vocal about we won't take this anymore.-
We want change.-
What does the district do?-
It creates a terrific school so that those loud parents can
put
their kids in that school and leave the lousy system in place.-
That's what I mean.-
That this has become unintentionally sort of the reason not
to
address the real issue.-
Our problem in education is not to create more exceptions for
the few, but how to fix the system for the overwhelming
majority of kids an this is not the answer.-
-
>> Mr. Cala, please jump in.-
-
>> No one supposes that this is the answer by any stretch
of
the imagination.-
I would tend to disagree with the thought that if it only helps
1% of the kids then it's not of value.-
I think part or all is the mentality.-
We look for the silver bullet and it's not.-
Certainly, the urban-suburban program by itself will solve no
diversity issues in this country, but the urban-suburban
program with other initiatives, a, not to say that it
unwittingly prevents I think is a disservice to the program.-
The -- there are other issues that I think wittingly present
integration in our schools and that's the economic will to do
what is right.-
-
>> The economic will.-
-
>> That's right.-
-
>> Tell me what you mean by that.-
-
>> Schools are not funded properly.-
City schools are not given what they need to do what they need
to do.-
And this has been proven in the courts throughout the years,
17
court cases right now, and there is really not a will to
integrate.-
-
>> Is there a political will to integrate?-
-
>> There is not a political will to integrate.-
-
>> Giving more money to the school systems is not the
answer
either.-
That es been tried already.-
-
>> I'm not suggesting that either.-
-
>> Here's the point.-
If we really wanted to give all children equal access to
middle-class schools and to good schools, what we would do is
have a county-wide schools of the school choice program where
all families would have a choice to place their kids anywhere
in the county, including the city.-
We're not willing to do that because the suburbs and the
noncity school districts really don't want our kids.-
What some of them -- some of them, however, are willing to take
a few of them, and by taking a few, it distracts attention from
the fact that it does nothing to help the overwhelming
majority.-
-
>> I'd like to add that one of the things I think is critical,
and, again, it's just a piece of the puzzle, is parental
involvement.-
And I can't emphasize that enough.-
I think that regardless of where your children go to school,
and I think the city school district has wonderful programs,
I
think that there's a stigma attached to it and the point I'm
trying to make is that we have parents who have children in
the
city schools as well as urban-suburban, and one of the things
that I try to teach is that regardless of where your child goes
to school, you still have to be an actively involved parent.-
As Mr. Gross alluded to, because your child is in a suburban
district city next to a Caucasian student does not guarantee
success.-
You have to be involved.-
You have to be committed.-
You have to be a participant.-
You have to demand from the city school district, and they
have, like I said, phenomenal resources.-
Again, they just have that negative stigma attached to it, and
people are looking to -- -
>> Let me talk about the stigma of the city schools for
a
second.-
We saw in the news this week the east IRONDEQUOIT school
district is prosecuting a parent, a Rochester parent, who tried
to get their student into those schools.-
My question -- I'd like to give it to all of you -- is this
segregation of race or segregation of class?-
What are we talking about here?-
-
>> They're not two distinct things.-
There is tremendous, tremendous alignment in race and class
in
this country.-
It's not like it's one or the other.-
It is undeniable that the overwhelming majority of people in
urban areas who are poor are people of color.-
So, it's not one or the other.-
Now, nobody should feel free to break the law, in my view.-
So, I don't think lying about your residence is the answer,
and
I think the district is correct -- -
>> That shows desperation, doesn't it?-
-
>> It does show the desperation, and we should get ready
to see
this very much more frequently.-
It's all we do is have a program that addresses the needs of
1%
of the total population.-
-
>> Mr. Cala, we're talking about -- there are radical
solutions, this solution of bringing all the districts
together, having a county-wide district, merging cities and
suburbs.-
Are we ready for that?-
-
>> I would agree with Adam that people aren't ready for
radical
solutions.-
I think a radical solution is the answer to segregation.-
However, to do nothing I don't think is judicious either.-
-
>> I would like to see Dr. Cala -- I'm a huge fan of his,
by
the way -- I would like to see him take the same fervor and
passion of his stand on this issue that he is taking on the
standardized test issue.-
There he is uncompromising, an he says this is killing the
education of our children.-
I know in his heart he feels the same way about the fact of
segregation, growing segregation of children, and we should
call it what it is.-
The reason why we're not ready for what's called radical
solution is racism.-
And fear, economic fear, and we have to address that rather
than skirt around the issue by slightly increasing the
program.-
-
>> I don't believe THAT'S COMING UP ON "NEED TO KNOW's"
what
I'm doing.-
-- I don't believe that that's what I'm doing.-
I'm trying to lead by example.-
We have not had one district that could be a part of
urban-suburban.-
Six are a part.-
Over 30 year, no one else has had the courage to say we want
to
be a part of this.-
-
>> Right.-
>> What I am trying to do is open a door, and I'm hoping
that
I'm going to encourage my peers to say, OK, you're willing to
do this, you're willing to put up with the grief you'll get,
and believe me, I'm already getting grief from the news that
we
are very interested in urban-suburban.-
-
>> How does that manifest itself?-
-
>> Yesterday's headlines, Fairport is mulling over
urban-suburban.-
So, I only received two e-mails that were negative, but one
said I chose to move into an area that was not diverse.-
I lived in the 19th ward in city and the people who want to
live in a diverse neighborhood could go move in a diverse
neighborhood.-
So, those are attitudes that I can't tolerate, and I think
they're attitudes, however, which lead people in my position
to
say I don't think I want to touch that.-
And it's the fear factor and people won't join.-
So, what I'm trying to say is I think that we have a serious
issue, we have to crack the door, and that's the beginning,
but
I think we really have to restructure how we operate schools
in
the county and state in order to change.-
-
>> Ms. Woodson, would you comment on the fear factor Mr.
Cala
is talking about?-
-
>> I have another spin on it.-
I had two participate -- children who participated in it before
I became program director.-
One of the things I saw was I wanted parents in the suburban
districts to get to know me.-
Get to know my students.-
Get to know my children.-
And so, one way of really dealing with it here was that
one-on-one interaction with families, and so I think it's not
a
mentality of students who transfer from the city to the suburbs
just to be there and partake of the academics.-
I think in order for it to be a real success, you have to fully
embrace all of what that district has to offer, including the
students and the residents that live there.-
And so, my children have made lifelong friends with those
students who live in -- and they happen to go to west
IRONDEQUOIT.-
You know, I thought it was imperative that not only those
families learn about my children but it was expected they would
come to the city and learn about my family and how we did
things, that your child has just as much to receive and benefit
from this as my children.-
-
>> That's going to have to be the last word.-
I wish I had more time.-
If you'd like to get in on this discussion, log on to our
website, www.wxxi.org/ntk.-
For POLITICS AND GOVERNMENT NEWS, just visit
www.NYcitizens.org.-
NOW
IT'S TIME FOR THIS WEEK'S
EDITION OF "THE BUSINESS
SECTION" WITH THE "THE
DEMOCRAT AND CHRONICLE."
With
us is ELLEN ROSEN, EDITOR OF THE BUSINESS SECTION FOR THE
"DEMOCRAT AND CHRONICLE."-
We have a big story.-
-
>> The small story was the sale of the building which
was the
property nobody has laid claim to.-
The big news was if city desiring to hire a bawl developer who
has a strong streak for success in other wares.-
He's done the Baltimore harbor, brought in the ESPN Zone.-
-
>> It's like an open mall.-
-
>> They took an old power company and put a whole bunch
of
different stores and restaurants an ESPN Zone in there.-
-
>> And we have one of those here.-
-
>> He's focused right now on the centers for high falls.-
He says he'll get rid of all but one of the restaurants, the
trip hammer grill, and will have four new restaurants and major
national chains by June 1.-
Then the plans get bigger, renovating a station and a beer
garden across the river.-
-
>> There is talk of bringing in housing with some of this.-
Is there any talk of bringing in apartments and -- -
>> Housing is a buzzword talking about redeveloping an
area.-
He talked about the Kodak parking lot.-
He has a huge vision.-
He was brought in originally at this area to look at Buffalo's
inner harbor and said he fell in love with high falls and
wanted to develop it.-
-
>> This weather has hit us in a big way, creamed us, and
I
guess we're talking about heating prices.-
Talk more about that, Ellen.-
-
>> People were surprised last month and now shocked this
month
at some of the gas bills they're getting, gas and electric,
and
their heating oil bills.-
People are seeing their bills double what they were.-
People have had to cut corners on food bills, one woman had
to
reduce -- had to offer her daughter a minimal birthday party
because it was that or be cold.-
>> There is some help out there.-
Heat is a program that helps folks.-
But it can sneak up on you.-
Is there any explanation as to why?-
Is it the turmoil in ---
-
>> It's two things.-
We've been unusually cold and energy prices are rising due to
a
strike in Venezuela, worries about the war, supply disruptions,
and the nation as a country, we're at a 28-year low in terms
of
oil reserves we have here.-
I think, you know, there's a lot of factors coming together,
but some people, what they're worried about is winter will go
on.-
They're getting by now.-
But if winter hangs on for a long time, it could put people
in
a bad financial way.-
-
>> Go to the pump and realize how much more I'm paying.-
I went to one gas station nearly $2 a gallon on the premium.-
-
>> Yes.-
Yes.-
-
>> Same thing, I assume.-
-
>> It is.-
When you look at gasoline over the years in terms of inflation,
we don't pay nearly as much as other countries do, but it's
gone up rapidly within the last few months.-
We're now at an all-time area high.-
>> Talk about Kodak's new product.-
-
>> This weekend they're coming out at the photo marketing
association, the largest annual trade show in the industry,
and
introducing easy share docker, a printer which will eliminate
the need for you to upload your digital prints from your camera
to P.C. before you print them.-
This connects directly to the printer and you can have a four
by six in about 90 seconds.-
-
>> It's always the question -- is this going to be the
one that
makes them a lot of money?-
Hard to say, I'm sure.-
-
>> It's two things.-
People are excited about this.-
This is a big step for people who want to do their printing
at
home.-
Easy share products themselves have gotten a lot of good buzz
in the industry as being easy to use, affordable, good
quality.-
This is Kodak's biggest success in a long time and this is an
extension of the line.-
People are excited about the accessibility.-
Kodak also hopes to make money -- once they sell you this at
about $199, they hope you fall in love with it and you buy
paper and other products from them.-
-
>> We have a few seconds left.-
Tell us what's coming up this Sunday.-
-
>> We're looking at creative ways people are weathering
a
longer term of unemployment.-
-
>> So some of the -- -
>> People are out of work longer than they have been in
the
past when they were out of work, so people are coming up with
unusual ways to get by.-
-
>> Ellen, thank you very much.-
FINALLY
TONIGHT IN YOUR WORDS, THE PLACE WHERE WE GIVE VOICE
TO YOUR FEEDBACK ABOUT "NEED TO KNOW."
CHRIS SCIME OF EAST ROCHESTER SENT AN EMAIL ABOUT AFFORDABLE
HOUSING IN THE SUBURBS.
CHRIS
SAID THAT THE PROGRAM SHOULD HAVE EMPHASIZED THE IDEA
OF MIXED HOUSING DEVELOPMENTS, THOSE THAT INCLUDE A RANGE
OF
RESIDENTIAL HOMES AND COMMERCIAL AND LIGHT INDUSTRIAL
DEVELOPMENT.
CHRIS
WROTE, "IF WE SUBSIDIZE THE DEVELOPMENT BUT ALLOW IT
TO BE PRIVATELY MANAGED AND WE DO NOT SEGREGATE PEOPLE
ACCORDING TO INCOME, BUT MIX INCOME GROUPS, THEN THE MIX
STABILIZES AND MITIGATES ALL OF THE RISK FACTORS AND
OBSTACLES.
I DIDN'T
REALLY SEE THIS BIG PICTURE VIEWPOINT FROM YOUR
GUEST.
I SAW
HINTS OF DISCRIMINATION BASED ON INCOME, RACE,
ETHNICITY GEOGRAPHY, ET CETERA, BUT THAT REALLY ISN'T THE
24
ROOT CAUSE.
THE
ROOT CAUSE IS THE IMAGE OF A LOW INCOME CRIME AND DRUG
INFESTED GHETTO DRAGGING ALL OF THE SURROUNDING PROPERTY
DOWN WITH IT, BECAUSE THAT WAS THE MODEL OF THE MUNICIPAL
HOUSING A FEW YEARS AGO.
GO
TO NEEDTOKNOW@WXXI.ORG OR WXXI.ORG/NTK.
"NEED TO KNOW" WILL TAKE A WEEK OFF NEXT WEEK FOR
A SPECIAL
LIVE FROM LINCOLN CENTER BROADCAST AND WE RETURN JUNE 5 WITH
A LOOK AT A TRAINING GROUND FOR ASPIRING POLITICIANS.
WILL IT WORK TO DISPEL CYNICISM ABOUT THE POLITICAL PROCESS.
WE'LL SEE YOU THEN.